Shouldnt have mentiond a name.
A. You gave him publicty. B. It goes against your point.

What exactly do we gain by getting an in depth review of Yoel Krous and his sins?

Spot on!

Hashem Yishmor!!!!!
This Yoel guy is ... well I cant belive this article was published.
I bet you his utube viewings are gonna go way up after this article!

Yoel Kraus does not need rebuke, he needs to be committed! Any conclusions drawn from comparing CH residents who are challenged in areas of observance with Yoel Kraus are questionable at best.

Ahavas Yisroel clearly does not preclude rebuking someone when appropriate. How and when to rebuke should be discussed with a mashpia, and sources in Chasidus should be consulted and contemplated. A rebuke done the wrong way can push someone who is already weak in their Yidishkite further away. Those who have a bit too much of a geshmak in “giving it” to someone should probably leave the rebuking to someone else...

ESTABLISHMENT OF NEW MOISDOS

Given the (generally commendable) desire to open new Moisdos (institutions e.g. a Shule, Minyan or Chabad House etc.) for the purpose of strengthening and spreading Yiddishkeit, we would like to draw the community’s attention to guidelines stated by the Rebbe in this connection. In the Sichoh of Shabbos Mevorchim Adar 5748-1988, which was edited and corrected by the Rebbe himself, two issues are raised for consideration:-

1. The question of unnecessary duplication i.e. an evaluation of whether it might not be preferable to invest efforts etc in the establishment of a Moisad which is at present completely absent rather than merely duplicating something which already exists.
2. The more important (Halachic) question of Hasogas G’vul (encroaching on someone else’s territory) which is, in many cases forbidden by the Torah.

With regard to the second issue, the Rebbe directs all those who wish to establish a Mosad, to first consult a Rov in order to ascertain that the opening of such a Moisad does not constitute any form of Hasogas G’vul. The Rov should be locally based, in order that he be fully conversant with the circumstances and details of the proposal, and should also be a Posek i.e. one who is regularly consulted and gives rulings in other areas of Halacha. It is also desirable that he give his decision in writing, in order to avoid further complications in the event of another party wishing to later establish a similar Moisad.

We are sure that everyone will appreciate that adherence to the above recommendations is in the best interests, not only of existing Moisdos, but also of any new Moisad, whose success is ultimately dependent on its being based on firm foundations, i.e. the will of Hashem as expressed in His Torah.

With blessings that we merit the immediate and complete Geulah through Moshiach Tzidkeinu.

Head Shluchim, Do not recognize JBD OR D.W
Given the (generally commendable) desire to open new Moisdos (institutions e.g. a Shule, Minyan or Chabad House etc.) for the purpose of strengthening and spreading Yiddishkeit, we would like to draw the community’s attention to guidelines stated by the Rebbe in this connection. In the Sichoh of Shabbos Mevorchim Adar 5748-1988, which was edited and corrected by the Rebbe himself, two issues are raised for consideration

You attempt to make a point by drawing out an obviously extreme example, which has no correlation to the tzinus issues in Crown Heights. (There are always individuals who misrepresent, in every religion)
And sorry but I believe this does fall under the category of Loshon Hara. (Just because he posts these things doesn't give you a free pass to repeat what you see) AND ONCE AND FOR ALL, TO ALL THOSE “RIGHTEOUS REBUKERS” according to TANYA as well, last I check rebuking is okay if 1.YOU KNOW THAT IT WELL HELP THE PERSON AND NOT DO THE OPPOSITE 2. IF YOU DO IT OUT OF LOVE AND WELFARE FOR THE PERSON not your own self interest) 3. You are completely clean of that same fault yourself. So lets all work on those things before we rebuke and write op-eds.

...IS the leader of this sick clan of people that harass woman in Crown heights, if you see him or his wife - who fully supports his assaults - you should “let him know how you feel”

was it really neccessary to go into graphic detail regarding the tznius issue?

I am no prude, however,in my humble opinion the goings on in Izbia did not have to be so graphic.His Facebook page will get way to many clicks now. Youngsters go to your website and now will be busy on line to see for themselves. Where were YOUR tznius in printing this article. ??? You were not wrong to print this article only it should have been edited.

delete this op ed

How about when people shut off overhead lights at the end of
Shabbos Maariv Davening? B“H” that they can finish so fast and flick on the “Rebbe's Video of the Week” in a flash. But the poor Chassid that's still Davening has to finish in the dark!!! Is that Ahavas Yisroel?

The halachas of tochecha are clear, if you don't know what they are, well, keep your mouth closed. I think the tznius patrol crazies are 1. bored 2. don't know halacha all that well
3. have some wierd issue that is causing them to pick on WOMEN which is rediculous if their goal is to increase tzius

And to the author of this op ed- well obviously this guy scares you, why? he is crazy. What does that have to do with CH? Most of us know halacha and follow most of it, and yes have some areas we need to work on. We have Rabbanim to ask shailas to, yes we need more shiurim ppl are comfortable going to (personally I was at a shiur a few years back learning a very nice sicha, then the Rabbi started in on how the whole pt of all we had learned is how the Rebbe is moshiach, I felt like throwing up and never went back...)We need to take a long hard look at how we are educating our children, at home and at school, not with blame, but with understanding that educating our own is top priority, and put our money (for some of us that means our time effort and talents) where our mouths are.
This is one more reason, if I can throw this in here, that it bothers me that the women's opinions and votes are marginalized here in CH, we all need to be more invested, that is the key.

When you say “it tells us that there are times when we must rebuke wayward individuals”, it means in private. It also says that if someone will not here your rebuke, then you shouldn't do it. It clearly says that if you know a wayward individual will continue to violate the mitzvoh, then you have an obligation NOT to say anything to him, for then you create a situation where he is now violating a mitzvoh letchachilah rather then unknowingly. Do you believe that now that you posted such things, the person will not do them?

What you just did here and what this website helped you facilitate, by posting it, is the worst kind of loshon horah!
You mention his name in a public forum. This spreads sinas chinum without achieving anything other then to spread it. If you were truly following the Torah, you would approach the individual privately rather then spreading 'loshon horah brabim. As the shulchan haaruch clearly states, whether something is true or false is almost irrelevant. even to spread GOOD things about a person is considered loshon horah. Let alone to spread BAD things about a person. You need to search your own soul for the true reason as to why you chose to post such things in such a public forum. What do you believe you achieved by this other then to yourself violate the mitzvoh of not spreading loshon horah and not creating and facilitating Sinas chinum?

“If after nudging, lecturing, farbrenging, pleading, or guilt laying “this friend of yours still has not repented from his sin,” should the community let him or her continue to aggravate the goals of Lubavitch?”

Let go of those who reject and lift up those who do not; who cannot.

the visual description of the pritzus....because it was so strongly descriptive, lowered the standard of the article. I agree that it was not necessary. Anyone who is creative and has writing experience knows how to give an idea without getting into the description. Lets be a bit more dignified about this.

David.W or JBD
Going against the Rebbe is a very dangerous thing to do

I write this bearing in mind comment #8. I have a number of areas in which I have not mastered my yatzer hara and would not presume to speak to others about them, but I have fought hard to maintain the Rebbe's standards in tznius (especially in public) for a long enough time to say the following:

TO MY DEAR AND LOVELY FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS - PLEASE BE MORE CAREFUL ABOUT YOUR SKIRT LENGTHS, SLEEVE LENGTHS AND NECKLINES! Stockings and open-toed shoes and sheitels/tichels aside (although also important), these three things are black and white. Either they cover the knee/elbow/collar, or not. I know how hard it is when you're shopping and come across a beautiful item that's “almost” there, but we HAVE to be leaders in the challenge of repairing our neighborhood and community for our children, and resist the urge to give in to our vanity. The only way to do that is if we comport ourselves as batei Melach, in levush and meise.

Someone in sem once told me, “we encourage the girls to wear tights. This way, maybe they'll at least wear knee socks, and maybe their kids will at least wear something covering their feet.” This was from a frum sheba frum person and institution, and in a holy city in Eretz Yisroel - how much more so we need to build fences for ourselves in a city and country where there are so many negative influences!

May we all be zoche to have the coach to fight our yetzer hara, and even more than that, to recognize the battle for what it is and encourage each other to succeed. And may the merit of the “righteous women” bring Moshiach!

I still believe that Yoel Kraus must be rebuked but the way it says in Tanya Perek Lamed Bais, show me where it says otherwise?
And those who are close to him may hate him if they've done all that it says in Tanya to do, but everybody else must still love him and try to bring him back with love.
Sounds different then what you've previously thought?
This is the CLEAR opinion of the Alter Rebbe, show me where it says otherwise.
(I would appreciate if you'd reply through email)

I think it is time that we true lubavitcher take a stand. Why do we have to let other people pull us down? pull our kids down?
what about the ch residents who steal from stores and from landlords and from schools by not paying bills and rent and tuition?
I think their names should be listed on a list and posted on this blog, so that we can help another store owner know that they will steal, and not give them credit. Why should we protect those that act inappropriately by stealing, giving lubavitch a bad name etc. If someone wants to act immoral or lie and cheat and steal but does not effect another Yid, go ahead and let him live his life without talking about him. However, once he harms or steals from one person, he will steal form another. Once he molests one child, he will molest another. Expose these people. Start a campaign to let everyone know who they are and help another yid. You will accomplish more in ahavas yisroel than by talking about loshon hora etc.
this from a ch mother whose child was hurt when other people wanted to stop loshon hora and so did not expose those that lie, steal, etc. in the community from other innocent people in the community

You made the mistake of most amateur debaters by introducing a straw man and committing 7 of 11 paragraphs to this person in order to bolster your premise. To compare a crazy person who's clearly gone off the deep end to a person of sound mind and not so sound dress, is a fallacious argument at best.

If you really wanted to present a strong case, you would have spent at least that amount of space explaining HOW you plan on effectively “rebuking” people who don't meet your standards without pushing them even further away. But you don't — precisely because you have no more a clue regarding the details of your prescription than anyone else.

Let's deal with normal Lubavitchers and not bring one nut as a proof as to how we should act with everyone. I think your approach is wrong. It's wrong because it won't work. Here's why:

Once someone is a 20 something and married, it will be much more difficult - albeit not impossible - to help them change themselves. (BTW, you can never change someone else; with luck, they may be able to change themselves.) And don't fool yourself into believing that since you have forced a teenage boy into a fedora and short hair and a girl into a BR uniform that you have changed their insides. All you have done is stuff them into some garment that doesn't suit them and cause resentment.

If you want a solution to the tznius crisis in Lubavitch, here are some of my pointers for starters:

For girls: Start teaching tznius in a modest way! Not by measuring girl's skirts as they walk into BR or BM or wherever, but by teaching them VALUES that are modest. Seeing whether they are wearing tights is soooo vulgar and untznius that such behavior in and of itself is enough to turn a girl off from tznius. Teach them to love and respect each other (and teach by example, maybe impossible in our community), and most importantly, teach them - by example - that you truly believe that neshomo is more important that guf. The teachers should teach them - by true example - that jewels and fancy boro park type dress isn't important to them and yet they are down to earth happy fun people who derive true happiness and satisfaction from life and they are not tortured, miserable, sad, frustrated people who are frum only because their parents were and they don't have the guts to change.

If our teachers really mean it, and are still happy vibrant human beings, that will go a long way in instilling the desire amongst the youth to want to emulate them. In our day and age, not many people want to emulate an unhappy person who behaves a certain way just because their afraid of what the community will say. It is the biggest turnoff.

Teach the boys true integrated chassidishkeit with the modern world. Teach them tachlis how to deal with sexual frustration, how to control themselves while on the net, and some the personal and practical benefits of having genuine values that transcend momentary pleasures. Allow them a safe haven to express their frustrations and questions with no pressure that the yeshiva will then use the information against them. Allow them to discuss what passions are pulling them, and help them use the value system you helped teach them, to learn to self govern their own desires.

Have great teachers deal with real genuine issues that teenagers face as they are growing up. Don't duck and pretend these questions don't exist; they do. Don't be like one who says the emperor is clothed when he is really naked.

Maybe one day I should write my own op-ed on these pages... Let me know what you think

Wow, the description of the videos was really thorough. I assume the writer watched them. It seems in the spirit of his letter to mention that watching them was forbidden. He should refrain from watching untznius videos. In fact, by describing them he has caused us all to sin. Shame on you!

Rebuking another does not cause them to change. Only through love and acceptance can you create a bond strong enough to awake in another the desire to see things from your perspective.

Luba means love. If your mother showed you unconditional love you would see this as the truth. Alas, not all of us were so fortunate. What made the Rebbe different from all the other Rebbelach was the simple fact that he loved you and unconditionally accepted you. He also encouraged us all to strive to reach our true potential. Only through his warmth did we all become uplifted.

What ever must be done, must be done with true caring. It needs to be done by those who know the meaning of unconditional love. The rest of you all should refrain from giving in to your yetzer harah and stop destroying what is left of the Rebbe's legacy. Hate will spell the end of Chassidus. We must not give into our baser instincts. Rise above it all. Transcend our upbringing and see life from the eyes of our leader.

Treat your children with unconditional love. You will be transformed.

Loshon harah does not apply to information that was previously known by more than two people. Besides for being publicly available, I confirmed with multiple people who told me that they watched Kraus' videos. The amount of hits he has received are also telling that this information is public and well known.

Additionally, even if what I said was loshon harah, it is permissible and indeed encouraged to say loshon harah about someone who sins publicly. Undoubtedly, someone who regularly puts such videos on line is sinning publicly and worth of denigration.

Kol Hakavod to S.B. Mendelson. At least there is one yid in CH that will stand up for pure &true Torah values. Those preaching against him are part of the problem and abuse Rabosenu Nisiaynu & especially the Rebbe by taking the Rebbe's Shlichus to be mekarev every Yid & using it to fullfill or their perversions

#23

You have got my vote!

I think we should video these harassers and post it on YouTube. So please anybody who sees these lowlifes harassing anybody, just take our you camera or you phone and video these guys, and post it.
We shall see then if these guys are really into 'Mitzvah Lefarsaim Osay Mitzva'.

What is your email address, or can you at least make one up for this discussion, I want to hear your response to where your Mokor is that allows this type of action.
My source that this is clearly not the Chabad way is the Tanya Perek 32.
(If you've never heard of it, that is the main book of Chabad Chassidus, and most Lubavitcher live, or at least try to live, by it's teachings).

Dear Yerachmiel,

If your goal was to denigrate this Kraus guy, why didn't you just title the article, “Public Rebuke of False Shliach Yoel Kraus”? I think what my fellow readers are trying to say is, if your priority is to point out that there are situations in which Ahavas Yisroel needs to be tempered by Gevurah, a briefer description of your example would have sufficed. And if you left this guys name out, anyone that wanted to verify your statements could have easily discovered the information on their own.

Otherwise, if your true goal is to publicly rebuke this man, please don't try to drag us unwittingly into your cause by using very prominent and sensitive community issues as a vehicle for accomplishing it. It is insulting to your readers to assume we would not also be disgusted by his behavior, and dragging him so thoroghly through the mud is counterproductive to the very valid and important debate about how to handle the tznius situation amongst our neighbors.

I am going to be dan lekaf zechus and assume you do not think that we should all run around shouting insulting words at people, and we are clearly not all going to write op-eds about the behavior we disapprove of in this person and that person. So please, offer some constructive advice, because many of us, like you, would love to find APPROPRIATE vehicles for delivering our message about improving tzniuskeit to our more lenient neighbors. Or, if you are trying to lead by example, I encourage my fellow readers not to follow, regardless of how valid the seeming premise of this article is. I hope, however, that you did not intend this article as a tirade against this man, in which case I am sure you can understand the protests regarding how much focus is put on him versus the issue at hand.

May the answers to all of these problems speedily become clear to you, me, and all of our fellow Lubavitchers, and may we merit to see the coming Moshiach tzidkeinu!

L. Abrams

Our dear children need to see joyful examples,men and women happy in our lifestyle,our G-d given halachos,and to be encouraged,not constantly rebuked. Too many of our schools have instructors who are themselves,perhaps, wavering in their views and uncertain how to convey the beauty of mitzvas and they need inspiration,encouragement and gratitude for their efforts,and constant chizuk.In our distress at what we sometimes see, we allow anger to take over,wondering how all the years of Lubavitch schooling could have so little effect in our childrens later life.Genuine examples are the key to improvement;we need heroes and heroines,people we want to emulate.How often we criticise goyim because we know there is a greater purpose to our life,yet look to them in fashion,entertainment etc.May we see nachas from ALL our families.

To 19: You probably eam b nos Melech-not Batei Melech (houses of the Melech).

Recommended reading (learning): The Alter Rebbe's one-page Halacha proclamations of Shabbos (Hilchessa Rabessa LeShabbess).

He is very clear, in this halacha-lemaysseh, printed in HIS Siddur (now as Tehilas Hashem, Nusach HaArizal) about the chiyuv (imperative) to rebuke someone who crosses the Shabbos-arrival-time. Read the “tough” language he uses; and note something (another pirtza) in Crown Heights as serious, and more serious (by different measures of the “act” and its “consequences”).

The Siddur (not the shulchan aruch or the Tanya) is THE last word in hora'a (practical instruction.)

IMHO another form of undermining tznius standards, is posting pictures of other forms of hefkeyrus that have infiltrated. For example: beer-swigging from the bottle (no cup visible) at a Sunday barbecue is prikas oyl of dubious halachic permissiveness. Posting multiple pictures of such an event is akin to pouring corrosive material under the foundations of a structure. (There is one “Chabad” community where there was a kids birthday party celebrated at a pool-side barbecue for families. Dresscode will not appear here.)

Apropos to the graphic description of the vile isle of Iziba: It is a sociological “axiom” that antimony (defiant rejection of religious practice) sets in when a group begin to feel their messianic aspirations have “crashed”. This should not mean “Let's reinforce the Mashiach” content of our chinuch.“ Perhaps to the contrary. As I heard from the well known chassidishe thinker Rabbi Kantor (Snr) in Los Angeles this shabbos:
”How tragic, that the broadest and deepest hashkafa system ever in the Jewish velt, has been reduced to arguably the narrowest, if not also the shallowest.“
Then in graphic theatrical style,
”Do you believe?“
”Yes, ah do believe.“
”You bein' sure you believe.“
”Yes, ahm 'solutely sure ah believe.“
”Let us now focus on the rest."

I am sickened by this Op-ed...not because of the premise, but because of the explicit details of this man Kraus' actions. I agree with the other posters who said this will fuel people's interest to “check him out” (but not mine!)

What possible benefit was there in publishing this? Please, delete the whole thing, comments & all. Fortunately, I credit our community with more sense than others; I don't think anyone is rushing to emulate someone who is clearly disturbed. But by printing it you give his actions some credibility.

Mr. Glickstein, your point was belabored & most of it was lost in your graphic descriptions of Family Kraus.

Kol Hakavod to 7. Yitzchok.F wrote

to #21.
yes if we publicized people who harm other people it would help.
why is it ok for someone to steal, not pay rent, not pay tuition or their grocery bill, molest others as in children and cause a great loss to someone but it is not ok to let everyone be aware and warn them of it?
I really want to know

very, very well said #34

To #5: what is so bothersome about Yoel is not his state of mind, but his general public disregard for tznius and the halachos of fasting and mourning. In that sense, there is no distinction between Yoel and everyone else in Crown Heights, insofar as they are publicly in violation of tznius and other halachos.

To #8: No prescription was given in this article for how to rebuke and for whom to do the rebuking. That is something that one would have to consult with a mashpia or a rov regarding. But, according to Tanya, someone must rebuke these people and not let them continue as they are. No one is beyond reproach just because of Ahavas Yisroel. Logistics can always be worked out.

To #11: The information supplied in this article is enough to forewarn any person wary of seeing non-Tznius depictions not to visit his sites. Nothing is being put in front of anyone here. People can and must take personal responsibility for their own actions.

To Bernie: see response to #8. The tznius patrols may well be out of line, but someone must start doing something effective. Ahavas Yisroel demands no less.

To Mendel Lazaroff: Nothing new was spread here and nothing bad was said about Yoel that he has not said about himself. Publicly known information is not loshon harah. Many, many people in Lubavitch have already heard of this person before this article but may not have realized the public damage that it causes inside and outside of Lubavitch. Additionally, the laws of loshon harah allow public rebuke and/or reprimand where the issue is of public necessity. Yoel Kraus is in Ibiza damaging Lubavitch through widespread videos and photos that are available to the public. Lubavitchers in Crown Heights are damaging Lubavitch by publicly disregarding halacha. If nothing else, this article brings attention to problems that are public in nature, but maybe not recognized as problems. It is high time that rebuke becomes re-introduced in our circles.

To wait just a minute: Even if each of us individually is not required to rebuke Yoel Kraus, each of us individually do have the obligation to rebuke those people who we know personally and are supposedly frum people.


To Common Sense: In your effort to discredit this article (implying that it is “amateur”), you created a straw man. You mis-characterized the goal of this article. The point of this article was to put forth a situation in which it is undeniable that some form of rebuke or another is warranted and that rebuke comports with Ahavas Yisroel per Tanya 32. The article never purported to suggest who or how to rebuke in Crown Heights. For the soundness of the logical comparison, see my response to comment #5.

To Chaim Tovim: My approach is only to bring back the avenue of rebuke to Lubavitch circles. Once again, I do not suggest who or how to rebuke in Crown Heights.

To esq.: Your comment simply does not fit in with Tanya chapter 32. Maybe it is time to revisit it in an effort to preserve Chassidus.


To Contact: any discussion with you about the topic will prove fruitless. You are not interested in thinking, only asserting your own understandings of Chassidus. Proof positive of this is that you failed to comprehend an entire article discussing the application of Tanya chapter 32. Indeed, it cited to Tanya 32 multiple times.


To Ummm... (L.Abrams): There may be many valid ways to bring a point across and you are welcome to disagree with the approach in this article. Personally, I believe that any thinking Lubavitcher should see the parallels between the two situations and realize the importance of rebuke within the mitzva and Lubavitch approach of Ahavas Yisroel.

To Booba: This rebuke that I'm speaking of would not primarily be targeted at school children, rather at adults who, if turned back in the right direction, can serve as excellent living examples of tznius and chassidishe values.

To HaMaamin: Add to the list of people the Alter Rebbe said in his Siddur to scream at: those who talk during chazaras hashatz. The Alter Rebbe was not against drastic reprimand for certain public nuisances to religious practice.


To educator: read all of my above comments. Something tells me that you are sickened that someone would address a problem, not that the issue exists. It will not help the Lubavitch cause to continue to deny the existence of its problems.

7. Yitzchok.F wrote:
is that binyomin and david in Melbourne

Mr Glickstein. You talk of this guys hits on-line .You just assured him of another few hundred hits. You are insane

No.23 CHAIM TOVIM . If you really mean what you wrote .I vote for you to take over the principal of Bais Rivka High School or Bnos Menachem but my girls to to B.R. so I vote B.R. and get rid of this whole B.R. administration who destroy ,degrade, criticize and do not have a clue how to deal with the tznius issue and not only don't know but are actually making it worse day by day and minute by minute. I wonder what new regulations and halachos they made up over the summer to torture and destroy our lovely girls even more. So how many more girls will this administration cause to hate tznius and go off the way. Loved your letter and hope the principals read it and wake up. Maybe you should send a copy to them

NO 7
David. W is not a lubavitcher
Australia

I've also learned Perek 32 of Tanya. It seems to me that it's very clear that one should only rebuke someone on his level. How do you know if someone is on your level? Do you know what the other person has been through, how he's gotten to where he is? Are you rebuking for the sake of ahavas yisroel or because you want to protect the name of Lubavitch?

There is no doubt that there are people who are less than perfect. But will rebuking them really help?

From someone who is has been involved with the so-called “Tznius squad”, I would like to say that there is not Yungerman going around the streets, telling woman what to ware. The so-called squad, had never done anything that is not in accordance with Shulchan Oruch, and the advise of our Rabbonim (including our currently two elected Rabbonim, Rabbi's Shwie and Osdoba). Not everything in Shulchan oruch is palatable, and may be scorned at by people who have no regard for these Halochos, however it doe snot make them wrong, and certainly not vilified. The actions of these dignified individuals (dignified according the Shulchasn Oruch) should gain the support every Ba'al Nefesh residing in Crown Hieghts, and people who hold the words of our holy Torah dear, should support these actions.
Enough said, I am sure my word will be dissected, by “Anoshim BliAal”, just remember, for Crown Hights to be considered “Kan Tziva Hashem Es Haberocho” it will only come through scruples adherence to Torah and Halocho.

Motty no.44 YOU are what is wrong with C.H. YOU are the tznius squad and you call our neshomos “anoshim blial” What do you expect? The one who is the mashpia using this language. Well you must be from Williamsburg because there is no way you are a chosid of our Rebbe. SO go back there and do your squad work there and preach you "bliyal foul anti chabad. mussar someplace else. YOU are destroying us

#23 chaim tovim, go for it, we'd love to hear what you have to say!

no.43 You want to know why they are rebuking. Its nothing to do with ahavas yisroel and they give a care about lubavitch. Its about a “holier than thou” garbage. I am old enough to remember many of these rebukers as young people. They were way worse.But now they are old and have nothing to show so they became the big tzadikim now . Pathetic

You wrote:
“To #8: No prescription was given in this article for how to rebuke and for whom to do the rebuking. That is something that one would have to consult with a mashpia or a rov regarding. But, according to Tanya, someone must rebuke these people and not let them continue as they are. No one is beyond reproach just because of Ahavas Yisroel. Logistics can always be worked out.”

I went to Bais Yaakov, and learned the laws of rebuke very simply as part of HALACHA class. Before writing this Op-ed, why did you not do the basic research of these laws?

You wrote:
“To #11: The information supplied in this article is enough to forewarn any person wary of seeing non-Tznius depictions not to visit his sites. Nothing is being put in front of anyone here. People can and must take personal responsibility for their own actions.”

Did you consult with a Rav to ensure that your article does not fall under “Lifnei iver lo siten michshol”?

And you wrote:
“To Bernie: see response to #8. The tznius patrols may well be out of line, but someone must start doing something effective. Ahavas Yisroel demands no less.”

How in the world is harrassing women going to improve tznius in the community?

David.W Is a trouble maker it's time you throw him out of the Yeshivah Rabbi Telsner
that will make the shul flourish

Can you quote from which words in Tanya Perek Lamed Bais do you understand that your methods are correct, I've learnt that perek countless times and I did not find a source for you methods.
Please QUOTE the words.
Just read it again and you will see they are not there supporting you.

And I could not resist commenting: I know many Rabbi's who take from their community under the guise of “ it is their responsibility to support me and I need many trips to Israel etc. Even though many contribute to their shul to support the shul, the purpose is ” not to enable the granite counters in the shliach's home“.I see this recount as a message ”he is out there spreading yiddishkeit." Wasn't THAT the Rebbe's focus?

This op-ed disgusts me. I'd never heard of Yoel and it's a shame that his name has to be put in such a negative light when he could be the kindest person on the planet.

His sense of tznius could come from the inside. Mr. Glickstein, you see him talking to women who are dressed immodestly but in his eyes, he probably sees them as they truly are: fellow souls Hashem created.

Consider Adam and eve: One is spiritually elevated when they are able to look beyond the exterior to a person's soul and one is sinful when they cannot. Your descriptions show you fall into the latter category!

You could cover every knee and elbow in the world but it's not going to stop your yetzer hara. Stop blaming such things for your own lack of restraint and spirituality!

You're supposed to treat others as you would want to be treated (ie, show them LOVE).

Mr. Glickstein, please write an op-ed about YOUR “faults” so that you, too, can be fairly rebuked in a public forum. Whatever Yoel's actions, he didn't ask to be judged, he didn't write about you. Everything you wrote has been archived on the internet; you cannot undo it.

You owe Yoel a public apology.

People should not be calling him nuts. He's living in a beautiful place and he is enjoying the life he was given. Better that than stressed out, stuck in an office all day being miserable.

you make one good point, Yoel probably sees the women for the g-dly human beings that they are, not bodies in bikines(Not that I condone such actions, but it is just a point to consider)

You are misquoting Tanya on a public website with your name and you have no shame?
You should beg the website owner to remove this ignorant article where you publicly express your ignorance.
In Tanya it doesn't say “Those who are with you” the proper translation of what you are probably trying to say is “Those who are CLOSE to you” and “those people who are with you in Torah and mitzvas.” Should be 'Those who are EQUAL to you in Torah and Mitzvos.“
And the sentence ”Tanya is surely referring to your fellow members of the Lubavitch community, those that learned in Tomchei Temimim and Beis Rivkah", clearly shows that you do not understand what the Alter Rebbe was saying.

The problem is you are misquoting Tanya in order to hate, if you were misquoting in order to love, not that it's okay, but I would understand you, but here you are clearly misquoting in order to HATE, Why?

I really hope author Yerachmiel Glickstein clarifies his purpose for writing such an article. I don't know what he hoped to gain by publishing this....

Sadly too often the main issue is not addressed. It is time for real leadership in Crown Heights that means Rabbonim must be honored overall kavod HaTorah must be emphazized. Hiskashrus should not be the only emphasis Torah and Halacha must take priority. Without leadership people start proclaming things contrary to Torah and justifying lack of tznius, fighting and sinas Chinim. Ahavas Yisroel applies to every single Jew it should not apply just to the frei. Calling other communities by names and putting down Torah communities which emphasize tznius and yiras Hashem does not make problems go away but only creates new ones. IY"H standards will be preserved and leadership will prevail.

Putting down Williamsburg and Mea Shearim does nothing but create sinas Chinim. No reason to degrade a Torah kehillah with values based on yiras shomayim and ahavas Hashem the day. To act like everything Lubavitch does is perfect and everyone else is wrong is just doing ourselves a disservice.

Sadly too often the main issue is not addressed. It is time for real leadership in Crown Heights that means Rabbonim must be honored overall kavod HaTorah must be emphazized. Hiskashrus should not be the only emphasis Torah and Halacha must take priority. Without leadership people start proclaming things contrary to Torah and justifying lack of tznius, fighting and sinas Chinim. Ahavas Yisroel applies to every single Jew it should not apply just to the frei. Calling other communities by names and putting down Torah communities which emphasize tznius and yiras Hashem does not make problems go away but only creates new ones. IY"H standards will be preserved and leadership will prevail.

“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” While all you say may be true, the sum of the parts of your message are false. This appraoch or rebuke just doesnt work. If you really have Ahavas Yisroel for the wayward ones or for any one of Klal Yisroel, find out first why society has eroded and really make an attempt to reach the lost. The Rebbe would not be proud of this article. Maybe the Shach would be.

Sadly too often the main issue is not addressed. It is time for real leadership in Crown Heights that means Rabbonim must be honored overall kavod HaTorah must be emphazized. Hiskashrus should not be the only emphasis Torah and Halacha must take priority. Without leadership people start proclaming things contrary to Torah and justifying lack of tznius, fighting and sinas Chinim. Ahavas Yisroel applies to every single Jew it should not apply just to the frei. Calling other communities by names and putting down Torah communities which emphasize tznius and yiras Hashem does not make problems go away but only creates new ones. IY"H standards will be preserved and leadership will prevail.

Tanya does not say how to be Mekayeim the Mitzvah of Hochiach Tochiach.
The Alter Rebbe assumes that you know it already.

Here I translate from Kitzur Sh“A Siman 23 Se'if 15 to the best of my ability, see it for yourself, ”One who rebukes his friend... must do it privately, and speak to him softly and in a gentle voice“.
Siman 16 ”If you know that he won't listen [to your rebuke], it is forbidden to rebuke him".
Can you give me your email, I would like to contact you.

Those who critize Williamsburg should realize that by diverting the attention they don't solve problems just show insecurity by the need to knock fellow Yidden R"L.

To Concerned Father (#27), Right On (#41) and #46: Thanks so much for your vote of confidence. I do truly believe what I wrote, and for years have seen that as a true solution.

I grew up in Crown Heights, but now live abroad for six years. But from my experience growing up in CH and living in various places around the world, I have learned a few things.

One thing that I know with certainty is that positive influence is the way to go. If you look at the Rebbe obm's leadership, you will see almost exclusively positivity. If we couple healthy positive teaching experiences with TRULY MEANING IT, I think we have a winning combination, and we will all be winners.

In my opinion, the greatest turn-off is the following combination: Teachers who haven't internalized Yiddishkeit and who are frum for some external reason, whether because they have a social group within the frum community, or are afraid to leave the frum community for another reason, or merely are ho-hum in their Yiddishkeit and don't really care much about. So if such a person starts rebuking others and in a very demeaning way, or if such a person forces others to do things uncomfortable to them on a day in, day out basis, this leads to major resentment and unhappiness. A strong person decides that they won't allow themselves to put up with that and will lead life the way they want to, despite “community standards”.

(We have to remember that Yiddishkeit (especially the Chabad form of Yiddishkeit) demands dedicating every fiber of our lives to G-d. That is a huge requirement and unhappy feeling to someone who doesn't really believe it in and only was born into it. If G-d is the G-d of his father and mother but not his - i.e. he hasn't internalized a relationship with G-d, he will feel unhappy and trapped.

Again, a step towards my solution is to have inspired teachers, such as Rabbis Simon and Yossi Jacobson, Manis Friedman, Yossi Paltiel, Levi Gorelik, Yosef Malkin (Jerusalem), Michoel Seligson and all the other great teachers, people who believe in it and who are gentle, become very active in our community and with our schools, to revamp the way we educate and to rebuild from the ground up. Schools should be positive places of building students and not crushing them. We should be teaching true values and a large part of tznius is a focus on such real values. Many of our adults will need to allow themselves to partake in such reeducation and refocusing as well.

I've run out of time for today, but maybe indeed I should write an op-ed.

Ahavas Yisroel does not mean bad mouthing Williamsburg but praising those who dont keep Shabbos since they are still Jewish. Ahavas Yisroel applies to every Jew and knocking other Torah kehillos dosnt solve any problems just prolongs this Golus R"L.

“By “those people who are with you,” Tanya is surely referring to your fellow members of the Lubavitch community, those that learned in Tomchei Temimim and Beis Rivkah”.

Based on what do you make that assumption?

The lines for Ahavas Yisroel:

Tomer Devorah Perek Bais:
“One should condition himself to embrace love of his fellow man in his heart even the Reshoyim as if they were his brother, and more then that”.

Sichos Kayitz:
“One must love a Roshoh Gomur like a Tzadik Gomer”

(See Likutei Sichos Chelek 27 pg 367 for more).

But this is just another opinion, it seems you disagree.
Well, its America and every man is entitled to his opinion.

“It is necessary and within the bounds of Ahavas Yisroel to take a hard stance against those that unrepentantly desecrate religious values”.

A hard stance?
Where does it say such a thing?
The Lubavitcher Rabbayim clearly disagree with you, if you want I can show you many letters and sichos where the Rebbe says the Toichacho (rebuke) must be done “Bedarkei Noam Ubedarkei Sholom”, this was always the Rebbes Derech.

There are those who disagree, but you can move to their communities where they agree with you, this is a Lubavitcher community where we work based on the Rebbes directives, please do not try to bring other communities behaviors into our community.

“Loshon harah does not apply to information that was previously known by more than two people”.

Are you serious, is that a real defense?
You may be right it is not Loshon Horo per se, but it is still Rechilus.

“it is permissible and indeed encouraged to say loshon harah about someone who sins publicly”.

Who told you this, where do you get this from?
Who encourages this?

So what do you say that we do to Yoel Kraus, what is your opinion on how to deal with him?

I think that the man is either mentally unstable, which would render him a Shoiteh according to Halocho, which would make him potur bemitzvos. (I lean towards this opinion). Or, he was just terribly mislead, in which case we would have to try to be Mekarev him like any other hippie off the street.

I want to know, Chapter and verse, based on what is your opinion, because Tanya Perek Lamed Bais does not say what you say it says.
(It says that you must draw your fellow “Bechevlei Avoisois Ahavo”).

This is the problem when head shluchim put EDP (emotionally disturbed people) in official chabad positions.

It is all right to let such people run peulos, as they nebach don't have much else to do, as shiduchim for EDP are hard to find.

But to make an older ED bochur an official shliach?

What happens when an episode happens?
who will clean up the mess? (or the burgers)

To number 60 and 65 . This is not Williamsburg or any other group bashing. It"s about telling our girls over and over how they should try to dress, act and talk like them. Let them be gezunt and fine. But they are them and we have to deal with our issues as we see fit and not try to EMULATE them.NOthing against them. They are them. We are us. JUst as a reminder. They cut the beard off a Lubavitcher Chossid year ago and we were halachikly instructed not to eat their shchita of hashgocho. So love them?? Yes, we love every Jew. But when we are at the point to love others more than our own. THen we are in trouble.

This op ed needs to be sent to whoever is able to send a proper shaliach to Ibiza, which is a place where many Jewish tourists who are very unfamiliar with Judaism often visit.

Then, it becomes that shaliach's responsibility, with the backing of his organization, to discredit and isolate the unfortunate former shaliach who is there.

That sad situation is in no way parallel to any other situation in Chabad, including the tznius issue.

Why don't you post you email, what are you scared of?
I'm not saying that you should post your phone number or even you primary email you can make one just for this discussion, if you are sincere about doing the right thing and you want others to correct you if you are wrong than why not open dialogue?
I have many things I would like to ask you and point out to you from which you may find some insight.

Yossi Paltiel gentle? Please to speak to several former Yeshiva bocherim from Chovei Torah to find out just how gentle he was when he got them thrown out of Yeshiva. Please find another example for our children to emulate.

I want to point out that rebuking is not something I am against, but I advise that this be done with caution. When my wife and I were “NEW BT's” we were visiting Crown Heights. I was jeans and my wife a tichle. What happened was even back then (this was 2002) I personally was approached by a few of these fanatical kollel yungerlite and bocherim of that time and was told how I am a disgrace to the Rebbe, and “you don't come into the Rebbe's neighborhood” and talk this way.

Following that, even years later, it still had a devastating effect in which I still keep many of you at an arms length. So these guys who are now older...what did they accomplish. At the time it was a momentary release of frustration...BUT THE RESULT WAS YEARS OF MISTRUST AND YEARS OF A BT NOT TRUSTING THOSE WHO ARE BRINGING HIM.

So, please, whatever you residents of Crown Heights, be EXTREMELY CAREFUL IN HOW YOU DO IT.

messianism is a terrible disease.

to # 77

aside from your loshon hara, you are so very,VERY wrong to use this forum to air your grievances against a respected teacher. it is immature and petulant. shame on you!

"However, Tanya 32 speaks of the possibility of rebuking “those people who are with you in Torah and mitzvas.” By “those people who are with you,” Tanya is surely referring to your fellow members of the Lubavitch community, those that learned in Tomchei Temimim and Beis Rivkah. It is necessary and within the bounds of Ahavas Yisroel to take a hard stance against those that unrepentantly desecrate religious values.'

This is a misinterpretation of chapter 32. All over chassidus that concept is described as a call to action AGAINST THE REBUKER. Over and over chassidus explains that if one was not successful when rebuking another, then the fault lies on the very rebuker. There are many chasidishe stories about this as well.

The writer of this article should begin with the Tzemch Tzedek's explanation of what Ahavas Yisroel is (in Derech Mitzvoisecha). This maimor is based on a short maimor of the Alter Rebbe.

The problems happening in today's Chabad can perhaps be laid at the very feet of the accusers. Since Chabad is one entity and one being, chasssidus explains, that the living organism which is Chabad is bleeding and hurting. And this effects each and every one of us in a way in which we are adamantly opposed to admit. because we all fail to do the most difficult part of our avoideh.

And then all the amazing stories of how careful and obviously successful the Rebbe was when he did rebuke, and I have received that rebuke as well. But it was a rebuke out of love, from a friend, from our Rebbe, from the way Chassidus wants us to instill: in a manner which heals and causes healthy growth, not the hate with which the modern mishmeres hatznius brings to our holy Being - Chabad.

1. I find it extremely hipocritical that u r touting tsnius etc.. and in very fine detail, describe the videos on youtube and the facebook pics. Y r u looking at this stuff if u r so holier than thou? Is that tsnius? Ur checking out videos of women scantilly dressed. U just dont make sense.
2. Wish u never would've brought up this Yoel guy, cuz now I have a taava to check out his sites etc...and I never heard of him before u brought his name up!!
3.Once there was a man who sold a certain product, one day someone opened a store selling the exact same product down the street and the original store owner kept seeing his customers going into the new store. He went to the rov of the town to complain. He wanted the rov to close down the new store. The rov answered him, stay inside your store and take care of your business inside and you wont be affected by new store! In other words 'stay inside and mind ur OWN business and then u will be matsliach, stop looking at the other guys store!!' Basically the message I am trying to pass on is, YOU worry about YOUR tsnius and dont judge others!! That's why we have a g-d. Stop playing Him!! STOP JUDGING YOUR FELLOW JEW AND DO SOMETHING FOR THE BETTERMENT OF ALL HUMANITY!! Set a true example and that would be so much better than this empty, thoughtless article!

#80
but to callously ruin a child's reputation is a ok.

What about Ahavas Chinam did you ever think of that, that is what will bring Moshiach closer not these stupid article's whose goal is 'Not Sinas Chinam'.

this article is pathetic and completely inappropriate- all i gained is getting to know another lunatic

Those of you who are all for harassing others into tzniut, etc. should think again.

Some would say that intermarriage would further Hitler's cause. But look at some of the things done under Hitler which are still going on today for religious different reasons:

Jewish women had to have their heads shaved.
Jews couldn't go to the movies.
Jewish children must attend Jewish schools.
Jews were forbidden to marry non-Jews.
Jewish children were barred from attending university.

So what exactly is you plan that is “both effective and sustainable”.
All you say is that it must be remedy, we all know that, the entire education system must be fixed as well as the Shiduch system and the... You know where I'm going.
There are many issues that must be fixed in our community, but I won't go and write an Op-ed about it, unless I have a solution.
All I see in this article is Rechilus (okay, not Loshon Horo), about another Jew and you telling us this 'Breaking News' there is a Tznius problem.
Oh, when did that happen?

Tell me, what is your SOLUTION?

I love Rabbi Paltiel. He has been my mashpia for years. What I can say is that he is extremely sincere, he lives and breathes what he teaches, and he says things like they are. Sometimes they do come out harsh.

Again, a step towards my solution is to have inspired teachers, such as Rabbis Simon and Yossi Jacobson, Manis Friedman, Yossi Paltiel, Levi Gorelik, Yosef Malkin (Jerusalem), Michoel Seligson and all the other great teachers, people who believe in it and who are gentle, become very active in our community and with our schools, to revamp the way we educate and to rebuild from the ground up.

---
Bizchus noshim tzidkaniois - add to that list mechanchois and mashpiois of the same caliber - I'm male and don't know their names offhand but I know they are out there and waiting to do something like this.

“Are There Any Lines for Chabad's Ahavas Yisroel?”

What a ridiculous lede! There is no contradiction between “Ahavas Yisroel?” and rebuking one's fellow. When you scold or punish your children you are not showing a lack of love but, rather, achieving just the opposite.

To the point; I agree that Kraus is a disturbed man whose understanding of Chassidus and of general Torah knowledge is grossly deficient. Nevertheless, his amhaartzusdike actions are Mecheti Es HaRabim and create immense problems for chassidim in general and for all Shluchim in particular. Accordingly, strong and sustained public warning and distancing are warranted much as Moshe Rabbeinu did against Korach VeAdaso. All of the above commentators insisting that only private rebukes are allowed, etc. have overlooked the required actions in the face of public Chillul HaShem.

to #53 - what does that mean “someone maybe the kindest person?” that and an individual making a tremendous chilul Hashem have nothing to do with each other .the din regarding he who makes a chilul Hashem is very clear. as for “his tzneeus could come from the inside”so are you saying the outside stuff doesn't matter?

to #62,rochel-fyi,that expression,about casting the first stone, comes from the new testament and was said by you know who.hmm.

Yes, I agree. I too am male and don't know the women, but I'm sure they are out there.

My heart is aching after seeing all the sinas chinom this article has generated. I am certain the author did not intend for this to happen, but I for one never heard about this poor unfortunate soul and could have lived well enough without hearing about his misdeeds. I am surprised that the article was printed without editing as there are pieces that cannot benefit anyone but those with warped minds. The author must realize that this is the internet and access is available to everyone and he has jeopardized the wellbeing of young and impressionable minds.
As far as tznius in CH. Those who enjoy standing on soapboxes or spouting holier than thou commands will not accomplish much. It has been tried often without success, Rather as Lubavitchers we can find a way of b'nachas ubneheemen. i.e. if you see a young mother who is not covered sufficiently explain that tznius guarantees healthy, good children, or parnosoh for her family. When done in a positive loving and sympathetic manner (not condescending or rebuking) devorim hayotzim min halev nichnosim el halev. I believe that each individual woman can help in this way.

The attack against Yoel Kraus was pure rishus (evil). He is a poor misguided soul, but a kind and sweet human being. Singling him out of nowhere to hold up for mockery and shame, is pure loshon horo, richilus, and rishus.

Attacking a humble Jew, who lives on some secluded island - was a disgrace and unnecessary.

There is NOT a chance in the universe that anyone who is even vaguely familiar with Halacha and Chabad will 'mistake' him for a valid shliach. And as for the island people, he fits. But none of this is germaine to attacking him here, in an article ostensibly about “the Crown Heights tznius issue.”

The explicit descriptions of his video files was obscene - much more untzniusdik than a short sleeve.

Frankly, these poorly written, pseudo-articles regarding “the tznius problem” are way past boring and repetitive, with rarely a constructive idea. The summer is almost gone. Autumn and winter are coming. The weather will take care of the problem, much faster than these empty OpEds will.

This has got to be the worst OpEd I have read here online. Poorly written, clueless, nothing constructive, and filled with a twisted bile.

One thing Yoel K. has going in his favor is that he is a happy and jolly person, not a constipated and angry human being, seeking someone upon whom to vent his hostility. If I had to live with one of the two, I'd rather be with the happy guy. It is easier to do tshuvo on avairos, than it is to change a miserable personality.

And the author here - Y. D. is a fictional name. He would have been more honest signing it anonymous.

Tznius is a big problem in Crown Heights. It needs to be addressed in the mosdos, the stores, in shul, in the schools etc. Other issues as well, such as alchohol abuse by men and the neglect that results from it also needs to be addressed with the same force and urgency. HOWEVER, there is a time and a place to properly and effectively rebuke someone and encourage them to change their ways.

Addressing this issue though does not give anyone the right to walk up to a stranger or someone they don't know that well on the streets of Crown Heights and “put them in their place” by embarrassing them. An effective method way could be that someone who dresses so inappropriate should not be awarded a prize or be politely told by a yeshiva administration they can not sit on a board of directors, even if they give a lot of money and come from a well known family. It could be that a rav of a shul politely steps up and says a man who drinks too much and is obnoxious or neglectful can not be a gabbi or whatever.

Nevertheless, All individuals need to be treated with respect in public as long as they are acting peaceful and minding there own business. All individuals have the basic right to walk up and down the street, frequent a store, eat in a restaurant, etc. I am not saying I enjoy seeing all the issues, but this is an undeniable American right and the Constitution and American law includes Crown Heights and all its residents.

I say this with respect but publicly berating, shunning, or embarrassing someone is a Taliban fanatic like tactic that should not be tolerated by any Jewish kehilla today, unless that person commits an act like the Neturi Karta does. I can assure Crown Heights that this behavior will absolutely lead someone who is “at risk” to surely telling this community to jump in a lake and then publicly rebel.

So yes, rebuke, but rebuke responsibly and in the right place and time and show everyone basic respect

he is a “shliach” (doing things in the name of the rebbe) in such a disgraceful way that in a way - i hate saying this - im glad he appeared with his mishugasen after gimel tamuz
but of course, heprobably wouldnt do anything like this in the open physical face of the rebbe.

There are three issues which I believe must be separated and teased apart.
1. There is definitely much too much graphical and unnecessary information in this article which causes the whole article to be looked at differently.
2. However, about the actual problem the author may beright that Yoel has unfortunately fallen very far away, and worse caused others to come with him.
3. The 3rd issue is how much this applies to Lubavitch overall. I believe it does, because while Yoel is probably at the far end of the continuum, there are many people that do things in the name of the Rebbe and Moshiach which there is no source for at all.