...And now's the part where they kick your daughter out of B"
M...

i disagree. i don't think women should vote in general and though i respect your opinion, i think it is the minority one. i think the majority of the women don't feel a need to have a role in running the “community”.
and while you bring up water carriers, i never heard of a woman wanting to be a water carrier - it's simply a mans job and that's fine. likewise, i've never heard of a man complaining about the discrimination of not being able to bear children.
now, while i disagree with voting, i do agree that women have something to contribute to the running of a healthy community and that the “feminine element”, for lack of better term, is sorely lacking. i just think voting is not the way women will be effective in making a change.

Tova-YOU are my new elected official!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love,

Shaina!!!!!

YOu wrote this so beautifully,and from the heart.

I feel that you speak for so many of us similar thinking women.

Wish I had the guts to write something like this!!

I love your opening line.

“My apathy is partially due to the fact that I don’t really know what the Community Council does”

You have to be careful as to how you talk as i agree with the first commenter, you may get your kids kicked out of school. But even scarier is the fact that some “Mashpia” may bash you publicly for even bringing up this idea.

But most important is your point, I agree halfway. Its not that woman should vote, but each household should vote. This means if its a single mom, or the like, woman should have this power to vote.

It will start with a vote, then move on to running as a candidate, then you will want to run for Rabanate...

OOPS!!! My BURKA just fell off!!! Please don't lock me up in the ladies section in 770!!

And you like having a black president?? You hold it up a sign of a good thing that has happened to us!?!??!

I'm not sure why you live in Crown Heights if this is how you feel. I myself am an educated woman holding many degrees... and you have overstepped your limits.

It's not a hidden fact that the woman of the household has a major say in the doings of her husband, in either strengthen and bscking what's right or the opposite. The wives of the Rabbeim backed the Rabbeim, but did not become a Rebbe of their own with a following. When Hashem felt the need in our history to make a woman with a role lead, HE did, NOT YOU! As we see with Devorah (a prophetess) and Barak, Esther HaMalka etc.

But all within tha proper Modest limits.

Honestly, you can picture in your mind men and women who are not married to eachother running the community and sitting in on talks and discussions... if you are living, as you so eloquently say, in 2010 what will this lead to amongst the men and women!?!??!

Any remnants of Brachos that Hashem is to bestow on our community will be gone and given to another community that is based upon the morals and ethics that the Torah has set up for us.

Think again, my fellow female Crown Heightser.

Hey I'd love to have woman vote. as a marriage therepist this will bring me lots of buissness.

It's about time an intelligent and well spoken woman speaks out about this important topic.

VOTING RIGHTS FOR CROWN HEIGHTS WOMEN!!!

Here here!!

There is nothing not tznius about it. Every major company or organization has men and women working together in crown heights. Think about it carefully.

As far as the voting it self there can be separate women run voting area. Let's face it, the men have not done so greatvtill now.

I will never forget my high school Social Studies teacher saying: “The best and fastest way to advance primitive third world societies is to empower the women. Educate them, teach them to read etc.” Yes CH is in the dark ages here, as much as we show off that we are so advanced, that women are treated so well etc, well there are some areas where that is simply not the case. I would would be embarrassed to tell anyone outside our community that we have a community organization that does not allow women to vote or run (Yes, run!). Oh and whem I have mentioned this, the response it 1.
the Rebbe wanted it this way (ok I have a big problem taking that one at face value, I would like to know how that happened, more details please) 2. The women would vote same as their husbands- well no they may not, some of us are actually allowed to have our own opinions.

#2 Wow, you did not understand that story, who said the woman wantd to be a water carier? No, the water carrier and butcher were running for mayor... A/w how do you know what women want?

it's just that unfortunately, the males in our community are rather bored and need something to do with their lives - so getting involved and mixed-up in elections keeps them busy.

Women B"H have better things to do. (unless if your a woman over 60 and no longer has children or grandchildren to worry about - i don't see how a woman would have the time to care about such a thing.)

i absolutely agree women should vote. i do not think a co-ed community council is tznius.

As a female member of Crown Heights, I agree with Tova. While people may feel it is not tznius for women to be on the council, I cannot imagine what is untznuis about women voting?

wasn't this decision a psak by halachic authorities in our community, ie. Rabbonim? Anyone care to shed light by citing this psak, which I seem to recall?

agree with #5

that's why woman, didn't vote till 1920 because the idea was 1 vote per household
usually household share same opinions and values..
but not anymore...

What about this one time when the women did vote?

Zaki tamir was for woman voting before he was against it.

I know, that the Rebbe never gets any mention in CH politics, but being that this is the system that the Rebbe set up, doesn't anyone care about the Rebbe here!? The Rebbe set it up in a way that women can't vote. PERIOD, end of discussion

Just like in 1920 it did not come without a fight. If you want the vote work for it. If you file a legal challenge you will win and have the right to vote by the next election.

Thank you for a well-written, sincere piece. It is unacceptable that women don't vote. In Chabad, women have always been treated with tremendous respect and equal to men in mitzos, barring those that apply to men only. Women's conventions, shluchos, principals... Lubavitch spearheaded all these activities for women. The Rebbe never spoke to women with any less intelluctual and spiritual vigor.
I agree, men and women should not sit on a council together, but it's archaic that women don't vote. Why is voting counter to tznius. Are the men perhaps happier keeping the women out?

As a single male who is also — stupidly — not given the right to vote, I wholeheartedly agree. Democracy only works when it represents the choices of the entire population, capable of making an informed decision. I doubt Crown Heights is ready for a woman in a leadership position at this juncture, but we are definitely ready to give a say to women — at least to those women who see themselves as intelligent beings.

When I read comments such as numbers 2 and 8. Number 2 lacks any grounding in logic: “women shouldn't vote because I don't think they should vote.” Our electorate would be more successful at choosing candidates without this buffoon. Number 8 is simply an intolerant hag, as demonstrated by her racist opening line. She is a self-hating woman who concocts theories about tznius to limit the rights of women, drawing lines that women cannot cross and saying that if a woman has a counter opinion, or any opinion at all, they should leave this neighborhood. Did she have a problem with women voting in the presidential election in 2008 to keep the black president out of office? Or are women useful only when it supports a racist or sexist cause?

Enough with these ingrained stupidities. Let the new council stand up for what it right and what is lawful and stop disenfranchising valuable members of the community.

i think its more the idea that women CANT vote. just let us and then see what happens..

I applaud you for writing this article and for writing your name as well.

I am a male who lives out of CH who runs a Chabad House and is a Shliach. I rely on my wife for everthing and anything. I trust her implicitly and respect her opinions.

I feel that it would be a crime if we lived in in Ch and she would not be allowed to vote. In fact, it would be stupid. Here is a woman who runs a successful mosad and is a well respect person but cannot vote because of some men strutting about and forbidding it.

As far as the comment of #8 that the rebbetzins held a backseat to their husbands. My answer to that would be Rebbetizn Menuch Rochel who did NOT hold a backseat and is held in the highest regard even today.

I am not signing my name because I am fearful of being blacklisted by those in abusive power.

I think this is a silly post, to be quite honest. It is an example of letting the non-Jewish way bleed into the Jewish way. All this talk of woman's suffrage is completely oit of place. The rebbe always spoke about the specialness of woman. A lot of what he spoke about was, how we are the strength behind our husbands and our homes. We don't need to be in the forefront to be an asset to the community. We need to be doing things quietly from the home. Crown heights isn't going to get better because their is a woman on the council. It will get better when every mother remembers this modesty she is
supposed to have, and
quietly, but strongly raises her family with the right set of values, and in the way of hashem. So maybe some feel the need to vote to feel impowered. As
for me I don't need that to know I am strong and
powerful.

So

Women are too emotional to vote in a clear and levelheaded manner and are not acute and understanding of whom they are electing and what the candidates stand for generally. It is better and more efficient to allow the man of the household the responsibility of choosing our community leaders.

to all the tznius people I say “Wasn't Deborah our Judge?”
Dare you call her untznius??? She sat under a palm tree outdoors so as not to be alone with another man. This intelligent, courageous, G-d fearing woman helped to conquer our enemy. Deborah was not afraid to lead Barak when there were no men who were willing.
Unfortunately, we have no Deborah today to lead us, and to show our menfolk the way. It is about time we give women the right to be heard and cast judgment on important topics that will directly affect ourselves and our dear families.
It can be a simple matter of a mechitza (curtain or whatever), or having separate voting hours for men and women.
To the objectors: Think long and hard about why and what you are truly against. It's time to come out of your caves.

Seems to me if 'only men are voting', rather than the men voting ON BEHALF of his household, then the problem is the husbands not taking into account his wife's opinions. That is a bigger issue than who actually casts the vote. I do agree that voting arrangements should include female heads of households. The daughters of Tslofchad set that standard.

I got news for you, most organizations and companies and moisdos and (gasp!) CHABAD HOUSES are run by married and single men and women who get up every morning, go to work, together, and no one bats an eye.

How many SCHOOLS IN CROWN HEIGHTS have men and women administrators who sit in conference rooms TOGETHER and make decisions for the best of our childrens education.

How many Chabad Houses have school or events which are coordinated by a few Shluchim and Shluchos working together. (In many large communities where there are 2 or 3 or 4 or more couples working in same area.

How many crown heights businesses have both single and married men and women working daily in the same office?

How many Tzedakahs which we all support in Crown Heights, which we attend Chinese auctions and concerts which were coordinated and ran by Men and Women making these decisions.

Please - crown heights has been doing this for decades already.

There is no reason this can't be done in a professional and tznius manner.

“...at some point in our history, possibly when Moishe the water-carrier ran against Tuvia the butcher for mayor of Dnenoptrovsk,” - um - lets go back to Moshe Rabeinu - machatzis Hashekel - was only done for MEN over from a certain age. WHY?? are we INFERIOR?? Trust me, that's not the reason. seek out the answer and you will find it. It has nothing to do with women being “lesser” important.

To #6:
Better a woman commenting on the length of our socks and color of our nail polish.
#8: your racism and elitism gives your degrees and your religiosity a fine stink.
#15: This was a psak din of the Rabbonim. Precedence provided? The above- mentioned mayoral election in Dnepropetrovsk. Their precedence cited? Consensus of local men.

In a secular world, this might be seen as a women's liberation issue. But B“H, we do not live in the secular world. We live in a world where it's okay to have separation and difference among genders in order to reach a higher level of kedushah. If this was an emotional issue enacted by chauvinistic men to keep women small, I might agree with the author's essay. But when the Rebbe himself warns against mixed board of directors, community issues, etc. because they break the boundaries of tznius among men and women, we show our unfortunate plunge into secularism by turning it into a ”human rights" issue.

I agree with #15... let's see if anyone knows that rulings in the past that were the precedent for women not voting.

In a secular world, this might be seen as a women's liberation issue. But B“H, we do not live in the secular world. We live in a world where it's okay to have separation and difference among genders in order to reach a higher level of kedushah. If this was an emotional issue enacted by chauvinistic men to keep women small, I might agree with the author's essay. But when the Rebbe himself warns against mixed board of directors, community issues, etc. because they break the boundaries of tznius among men and women, we show our unfortunate plunge into secularism by turning it into a ”human rights" issue.

I agree with #15... let's see if anyone knows that rulings in the past that were the precedent for women not voting.

Good job, Tova. I admire your courage, as always. I love the way you make your point, and are so funny at the same time. If anyone wasn't sure, the 'water carrier/butcher' reference was a hilarious moshel for voting, and not examples of future careers for women. Maybe at the next election, we should vote to legalize marijuana in CH, since everyone needs to calm down just a little...that's a joke.

Why not let women vote? If we dont need beards,dont need to dress Tzinius,can go to Collage,can eat Cholov Stam,etc.,etc.,what the heck,lets let women vote. After all its 2010. GEVALT !!!!!!!

Tova Parks Perchick Leader-Baum,

Kol Hakavod!! You Rock!! Well said!! I totally agree!! Just one thing...I didn't notice the president was black???

Voting is a tznius thing, by its nature. Its done anonymously, quietly, and no one knows who is voting for what. Let's not be scared of new things, just for the sake of being scared.

The Vaad hatznius would like to make a deal.

Attention woman!

Cover up and dress tznius, and the vaad will endorse the womans right to vote. Till then. The vaad will ask you how much you charge.

“They gave each other a pledge unthinkable”....

Dinah Abrahamson of our own Crown Heights was honored nationally last year on womens suffrage day. I know she is very involved in and holds various elected offices, yet she has chossen to raise her children and to live here. I am sooo curious what her thoughts are regarding this issuse?

Ironically all the people that work in the community council office are Women. Halachicly “Tzarchah D'Tziburah” (the need of the community) may be as important, if not more, than tznius. Maybe if we cared a little less about tznius and a little more about the poverty level? Is there really a fear of men and women working together at a Vaad meeting? Is the Vaad really known for “working together”?

In a community where girls are talked down to and do not get counted it's no wonder that they're acting out. If you want them to care about the “sanctity” of the Community and to dress and act in a tznius way maybe you should include them or act in a way that would make the Rebbe proud instead of fighting. Young people in Crown Heights think of the “Community” as a joke because it's a circus.

Hey #8:

You wrote:
“Honestly, you can picture in your mind men and women who are not married to each other running the community and sitting in on talks and discussions... ”

Uh, yes. It's called the State of Israel. Homeland of the Jewish People.

why do i need to vote? My husband is a good representitive to vote on behalf of my entire family to vote what is best for all of us.

this article does represent the “enightment” which america has come to but that doesn't mean that is right. llook into what torah has to say about men and women's roles in this world (which as the rebbe spoke about many times, women do not have a LESSER role they have a DIFFERENT role) and think over your opinion again

So let me get this straight, it is tznius when Yvette Clark had a MALE member of the Anash has her Jewish Liaison, it is tznius when all these home offices, and small offices have female secretaries or book keepers and major issues of yichud can arise, but women voting and or running for Vaad ha Kol isnt? Come on, I am so tired of using Yiddishkeit to justify sexism or racism.

Now the issue of we are living in 2010 and a Black President, I disagree with since those are irrelevant points, we are living in 2010 and shomer negia still applies. However, I do not see why a woman over 30 who is single or a divorcée can not vote in these elections. One could try to bring up tznius issues with women running, well then I guess there are tons of tznius issues with many frum offices as well. I would like to see a direct source in halacha against it. Will the Kollel Youngerlite who are so concerned with Tznius issues cite the halachic source please?

Women have the same concerns with our community as men, and just like a husband and wife may disagree when voting for elected officials, they may disagree when voting for Vaad Ha Kol members. I don't see why women can not at least vote, what “tznius” issues are there in that?

how about having the city stop funding the community counsel until woman can exercise their RIGHT to vote.

Since you cannot conceive men and woman serving on the counsel together, how about having woman run the counsel.

Slippery slope. maybe we should not let woman out of the house because than they will want to vote, run as a candidate, and for Rabanate...

to #25 like you yourself said that you “rely on my wife for everthing and anything. I trust her implicitly and respect her opinions”. that is great that is the way it should be and THERE FOR your wife doesn't vote because you rely on her opinion, you essentially vote for her!!

From #8 “Honestly, you can picture in your mind men and women who are not married to eachother running the community and sitting in on talks and discussions... if you are living, as you so eloquently say, in 2010 what will this lead to amongst the men and women!?!??!”

Yes I can picture it, many of us women are already working in jobs where we respectfully communicate with men, wait even asking a shaila we have to respectfuly talk to men, what about going to a male doctor?
There is no reson a woman cannot take part in public life in a tznius way, yes Devorah Haneviah is an example of that. She sat in a public place so she would not be alone with men. But she was in a position of authority.

Opposition to this is culturally and comfort level based rather then halachicly based.

Repeat “Women are not lesser they are different” and repeat, and repeat. Hey, feel better now?

I am SO happy to see so many comments on this article. What i am even happier about is that someone agrees with me!

the minute this whole election thing started happening - i noticed RIGHT away that amongst the rules women were not allowed to vote. and FINALLY other women are speaking out!!!!!

good for you --- i dont live in Crown heights (maybe now i know why) - this is NOT something that should be taken lightly. Women SHOULD have the right to vote (and run as well)

I think its time for picket signs....
good luck !!!!

Tova, I completely disagree. Unfortunately, you, along with many others, have fallen for the American illness of enforcing your vision of equality wherever you go. Don't try to change a society whose values are different than yours; find a community that meets your standards and lives by your values. This isn't a “problem” that's uniquely associated with Crown Heights. There are NO Chassidic communities that allow women to vote, and that's the way it should be.

That said, I moved out of Crown Heights a few years ago for all the reasons above, and I'm much happier for it.

if the idea was one vote per household, why couldn't the woman cast the ballot.

I don't think it's an issue of Tznius, but rather of tradition. Traditionally and in Halacha, women did not take an active role in the community-wide political spheres of Jewish life. Ex: women can't be judges, or witnesses. The example we have to the contrary is Devorah - who is a rare exeption. We also see women leading WOMEN ONLY, not the community as a whole.

Also - when a man votes, perhaps it should be encouraged more that the decision of who to vote for should be made by both husband and wife. I.e. It's one vote per family. The question then could become “what about when there is no man to represent the family?” similiar to the case of Tzelafchad.

GOOD POINTS MADE IN ARTICLE!! I NEVER EVEN THOUGHT OF THIS! HOPEFULLY CHANGES WILL BE MADE NOW.

Dear Ms. Bernbaum:

With the utmost respect to your intelligence, I will say that you need to listen to a Manis Friedman (or Rivkah Slonim, if you prefer) CD on the traditional communal roles of women in Orthodox communities like ours--which is the real reason women can't vote here. It would be easy for me to spout frumspeak at you, but you need real answers. Do yourself a favor--get a CD from either of these two which discusses the issue and you should get an answer that genuinely satisfies.

“Women are too emotional to vote in a clear and levelheaded manner and are not acute and understanding of whom they are electing and what the candidates stand for generally. It is better and more efficient to allow the man of the household the responsibility of choosing our community leaders”
And that's why we our community council and “community leaders” has always been “graced”
with members of such “moral” and “intellectual” caliber.
What a farce!!!

I have an idea the next person who comments on women not voting and or being on the Vaad, should do so with a citation in halacha and/or a citation in what the Rebbe said. So far all I see is emotional frum dogma that has nothing to do with what halacha actually says. I would like an explanation how according to halacha this is not the role of women. All I am seeing is fear.

BH

it's intresting to note that the communal structure of the Iraquoi indian nation was structured porgressive to say the least..the women had their counsel and brought to the men the issues that should be acted upon. in otherwords the women knew what the important issues where and proposed to the male counsel which issues should be given priority. two sepirate counsels but the issues of real importance were proposed by the women. interesting indeed.
znus isn't an issue and male ego isn't either.

“...at some point in our history, possibly when Moishe the water-carrier ran against Tuvia the butcher for mayor of Dnenoptrovsk,” - um - lets go back to Moshe Rabeinu - machatzis Hashekel - was only done for MEN over from a certain age. WHY?? are we INFERIOR?? Trust me, that's not the reason. seek out the answer and you will find it. It has nothing to do with women being “lesser” important."
The purpose of machatzis hashekel was to count how many MEN of military age there were who were capable of doing battle..Another reason men were obligated to fulfill the mitzvah of MH and not women, according to Chazal,
was because the fulfillment of this mitzvah was lechapair al chait hoeigel.Women did not participate in this chait therefore there they did not have this obligation.
Please check out your source material before posting boich svoris.

voting in crown heights has nothing to do with democracy like many might think. it has to do with what the Rebbe insisted happen in Crown Heights. Also it sets up a Beis Din Kavua.

There's nothing more offensive than the “party line” rhetoric about how according to Judaism Women are on an even higher level than men...

No one here is talking about going against Halachah, Chassidus or the Rebbe. They just want to be counted and have a say in something that might affect their lives.

It will obviously take out-of-towners who will challenge the Russian, Klain Keppeldick mentality in the way that Shluchim constantly innovate and evolve to promote yiddishkeit without forfeiting their beliefs. It's too easy for people to say “the Rebbe said” to further their agenda. Do we really need to respect what the Rabbonim say with all of the fighting that goes on.

In Pirkei Avos, it says that women and men should converse with each other as little as possible. So there's your answer as to why women should not be on the Community Council. It's simply not Tznius.
As for voting, I see nothing wrong with that; however, if the Rebbe did, there obviously is something I'm missing and we have to accept that. It would be nice to know, though, what was wrong.
-- a female

To Mendy Hecht:

Manis Friedman has long been discredited as someone who is in touch with reality.

I am in shock and total disbelief! Commentators continue ranting and raving, totally ignoring the fact that the reason why women have been excluded from the votes was set into place by the Rebbe himself, based on Torah!

Having said that... In defense of the women who work at the Community Council... I know each and everyone of them. They are tsniusdik in every way, eidel and do not seek attention to themselves. They get the job done without fanfare or overstepping the limits of tsniusdik.

On the other hand, I would be quite worried if any of the non tsniusdike women, with their cascading sheitlach, short, tight skirts, low necklines, skimpy dresses, and more often than not, painted toe nailed, sockless and/or flip flopped feet, looking so provocative with “look at me” attitude, were to work in the capacity of a community leader!!!!

Why are our very own women placing themselves in the same sort of position as women who complain that they would like to sit next to their husbands during “services” and would like an “aliya”, claiming discrimination???!!!

I truly believe that it is time to hit the sfarim again and begin from the beginning. How do these complaints come from within our very own camps?? Es past nit!

Everyone who knows me, knows that I am a classy woman who is always very well put together. I don't need attention from another man to help me with my self esteem.

And yes, perhaps, if women would become more tsniusdik, men may take them more seriously.

WE REALLY NEED MOSHIACH NOW!!!

anything that breaks a status quo is not tzniyus. there is a letter of the Rebbe I forget the exact makor. (maybe I will look for it and post it that) about a woman who got into a car accident to which the Rebbe told her that it could be that the reason is that in her community the minhag is that women shouldn't drive.

this is although the Rebbe's own Rebbitzen Drove!! i.e many times the guidelines of tznius are the status quo! women breaking this status quo is not a tzniyus act.

It is explained about the B'nos tzlafchad (I'll find the exact makor in the Rebbes sichos) that what they did was NOT tzniyus. It was AGAINST the general rule that KOL KVUDA BAS MELECH PNIMA but there was no other choice they loved the land of Israel and they had no one to stand up for them.

meaning that when ever there IS another option women voices should NOT be heard!! period. you can say that such a a view is misogynistic. Or you can believe that the “Torah is true and its words are true”.

Indeed one can say that one of the main problems in the C.H community is that the values are not Torah based but are rooted in popular culture.

If the writer would have written her mind based on a Torah view this would be one thing. But that the writer bases her thoughts on ideas of “women suffrage”. and that Jewish practices from time memoriam being antiquated is an embarrassment to the greatest degree.

If one has a issue with the Torahs view on women then take a sefer and look what is the Torahs view. Don't scream that it is a womens rights issue!

to Sholom Ber Mendelson,

What appalling intolerance!

“The Vaad hatznius would like to make a deal.Cover up and dress tznius, and the vaad will endorse the womans right to vote. Till then. The vaad will ask you how much you charge.”

Is this an example of civil tznius discourse? If women don't dress or act in a way you find appropriate you refer to them in such a way? Also, beware of making promises--for the Vaad--that you can't keep. Go back to Cleveland and learn some tolerance for individual differences.

Tova, Congrats on a thought provoking, comment provoking article, intelligent and articulate as always.

This is a matter of crisis proportions.
So is the Shidduch issue.
Is tznius in dress-code far behind?

It all stems from the true crisis.
The hashkofah crisis.

What relevance has it what goes in a society that elect a black president? We live in a different society. No? Oy Vey.

Yes, we had a president with a zipper problem. Essentially he got away with it. How should that affect our society?

If women are allowed to vote, would that include a flaunting “out of the closet” single mom? (Other gender would pose the same question.)

Where do we draw the line if a SHCHUNA needs to reflect the surrounding society?

A rebellious public mechalel shabbos - does that person get to vote in the SHCHUNA?
Can you imagine that given the current abysmal lack of hashkafa, the hefkerus, and the outright chutzpa, in the flotsam on the streets of Crown Heights, the mexchalel shabbos befarhesia is far off? I can here it already “It is between me and G-d and none of your business.”)
What happens when a state approves same gender marriage. Does that affect our social patterns?

Ladies (bviously I am male) I hear you. I feel your frustration. You were not prepared for this role, so you followed the crowd out there in di goyishe velt. But please stop and think. Where will this lead us? The slopes are slipperry enough already. Do we need to push an already rolling snowball? Think of your children or their children. Think of your neighbors children. Hott rachmoness and restrain your demands for the dubious koved of voting.

Dubious koved indeed. An einreddenish. Please, please, look at the greater opictre. Traditioon. Mesorah. We have thousands of years behind us. We are no whippersnapper insocial reformers asping to change society though political means (office of President.)

Ho many people realize that the author of Fiddler on the Roof was making fun of yiddishkeit. Menedele Moycher Sforim, the authors pen-name, could have written the lines about Moshe der Vasser Tregger. And here we have it in the SHCHUNA promoting change. Mendele Moycher Sforim's change. (Or perhaps the Presidents change - after all he gets a mention as a dugma of what we need to emulate if only in kind.)

Are the women aloud to vote for the CHCC (non-Jewish)? Do they? Why not? A segregated Jewish vote might also not pass muster in the US legal system. Why discriminate. Go vote there.

After all this, it is my opinion that a separate council at a separate location representing a separate CHJCC with separate lection dates etc. could be done if the Rebbe has not specifically targeted it. Has he?

Some of the posters claim that the Rebbe said that only men should be eligible to vote.Can someone please quote chapter and vote where the Rebbe says so clearly?No allusions remozim or otherwise but clearly and distinctly.

The halachic issue is called serarah. And it goes back to biblical times. The bible tells us when we enter the land to take a king. The sages tell us the biblical verse is telling us a king and not a queen. Maimonidies rules that women are not allowed to have positions of authority over the community such as a parnesses otherwise known as a community council member.

This issue heated up in Israel in the time of the British mandate regarding elections. Some rabbinic leaders said since this a situation which we cannot change and we want to have a voice in our destiny women cannot run but they can vote others but it is NOT IDEAL. Others including the great leaders of orthodox Jewry Rav Avraham Yitshak HaCohen Kook, Rav Yehoshua Leib Diskin, and Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, and Rav Yechiel Michel Tukachinsky, all said women CANNOT VOTE.

For the most part the same reason women cannot be rabbis, gabboyim or on synagogue boards is the same reason they cannot be on a community council.

For the most part the same reason women cannot be rabbis, gabboyim or on synagogue boards is the same reason they cannot be on a community council.

Elements in the modern orthodox community are consistently taking the most lenient opinions in an attempt to align halachick values with the human rights values of our time. This is why you will see ultimately modern orthodox women rabbis.

There are those who say that the traditional orthodox are choosing the more stringent approaches when they could be more lenient. The traditional orthodox world would respond that even if that was the case at times here if you ignore the contemporary values of society and view the situation through the lense of torah the weight of the opinions and authorities would be on their side.

See an overview of the historical and halachick discussion from Professor Frimer who is at the forefront of trying to change the role of women in Judaism.
http://text.rcarabbis.org/?...

Hayituchin you're referencing a movie! What about YOUR children!

Remeber what Abigail Adams wrote to her husband, John Adams, who was later the 2nd president of the United States:“I desire you would remember the ladies and be more generous and favorable to them than your ancestors. Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of the husbands. Remember, all men would be tyrants if they could. If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation”. Nuff said.

Shalom Ber Mendelson
Who in Heaven's name to you think you are making such a statement and referring to woman in such a degrading and vulgur manner?? This is not an articule about tznius it's an article about basic rights. And if Tznius is an issue I am sure the Vad can come up with good enough michitza so that the holy men such as your self will never have to lay their eyes on the women who vote. Nothing else is your bussiness

Am glad this is finally brought up. May this be the end of a time leading to a better beginging

This tip my dear sisters is the oldest one in the book, let your husband vote and let him think he's voting for whom HE wants to, but we know how to work it that he really votes for whom WE want him to!!

Am glad this is finally brought up. May this be the end of a time leading to a better beginging

Shalom Ber Mendelson
Who in Heaven's name to you think you are making such a statement and referring to woman in such a degrading and vulgur manner?? This is not an articule about tznius it's an article about basic rights. And if Tznius is an issue I am sure the Vad can come up with good enough michitza so that the holy men such as your self will never have to lay their eyes on the women who vote. Nothing else is your business

Why is women voting for Vaad hakol less tziniedic then women voting for president of the USA,Congress,and local elections?Are there michitzis at the polling stations?Am I missing something here?

Tova,

Thank you for your op-ed. It was well-written.

#54 said, “American illness of enforcing your vision of equality wherever you go. Don't try to change a society whose values are different than yours”

Tova's vision of equality reflects that of the country WE, including you #54, live in. You know, America.

Why is it that the “rare exceptions” have to be ancient? Those “rare exceptions” exist TODAY in every community! With the knowledge and opportunities we have today, the only thing that should be rare is ignorance. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

#8 said, “what will this lead to amongst the men and women!?!??!”

Progress. There is a world beyond CH where men and women respectfully work in government and women are also highly-respected government leaders. Women also own and lead corporations and organizations. How do you not know this?

”Hashem felt the need in our history to make a woman with a role lead, HE did, NOT YOU!"

Hashem gives EVERYONE the potential to lead. Unfortunately, humans see fit to destroy that potential.

The only reason women are not allowed to vote and participate in communal matters is for man's irrational fear that a woman would neglect her duties as a wife and/or mother.

Where have come to? We want women to vote? It's like we want people who break shabbos to vote. In my view they should both be locked up and not let out on the streets without a leash. There is a reason that men write the rules and that is so we could exclude women. Who would want to live in a society where women can vote? I'm moving to Saudi Arabia when that happened. Over there women know their role. They stay in doors and only speak when the man takes the sock out their mouth.

“Why are our very own women placing themselves in the same sort of position as women who complain that they would like to sit next to their husbands during “services” and would like an “aliya”, claiming discrimination???!!!”

Maybe because today, people are so busy that any time they get to spend with their spouse is priceless. I've met couples whose only real together time is on Shabbos. You never know what someone's situation is. A lot of couples break up because they can't spend time together and therefore, they grow apart.

Women want an aliya not to bring attention to themselves but because of the spiritual elevation involved. How is that not understandable? Not everything has to do with wanting attention. A lot of people have sincere, spiritual desires.

“Ignorance is bliss. I love CH!”,

All of your sources (Ravs, sages, etc.) are men, not Hashem. See how that works? They're man-made rules.

#8 “Honestly, you can picture in your mind men and women who are not married to eachother running the community and sitting in on talks and discussions... if you are living, as you so eloquently say, in 2010 what will this lead to amongst the men and women!?!??!”

Wow I was unaware that the men and women of Crown Heights were so over charged and lack discipline neded to control themselves and would be tearing each others clothes off in the boardroom while attempting to conduct business. I think someone has been watching to many secular movies!

To #73.
You take me to task referencing a movie. I didn't know what you were talking about. Then I realized. You don't know that Mendel Moycher Seforim was an AUTHOR (Fiddle was originally a story called Tevyeh der Milchiker - but you would have known that?) So I committed an averyeh quoting the name of the film rather than the obscure story name from the early 1900's.

As to you assumption about children and their chinuch. Ay, halevay volten alleh gehat a siyata dishmaya that I had. At our 43rd anniversary we had more einiklech than years of marriage, and KA"H children lesheym ulesiferess.

Gebentched zolst du zayn. I just don't know why you spat out so emotionally.

To #74 Ariella.

Yes we live in America. When in Rome do as the Romans?
Are we Jewish Americans or American Jews?

An exercise I used to do with students years ago, to point out their identity “crisis”:
You are on a train in a foreign country. You meets a Jewish (in this case an obviously devout shomer torah Jewish) and you meet an American. You crave companionship. Which one do you drift towards? (In other words: Who do you have more in common with?)
I do not know who you are, but this question pertains to most of those who wish our community Western Cultural Values: Why have you not raised the issue of separate segregated education? Will we yet see a school in the SHCHUNA with co-ed all the way through?
Please think your feelings through (and through) and attempt to reach the true of true (Torah and its value system.)

There must be asizable number of families headed by single mothers in Crown Heights. Amazing that a man who beats up his wife is allowed to vote, but his wife is not.

No wonder women get treated so poorly by batei din. They don't have a vote, who cares what they think.

Every single family headed by a single mother is excluded from the voting system. Lovely.

“My apathy is partially due to the fact that I don’t really know what the Community Council does”
Your article is not a matter of opinion but a question for a Rov - what is the Torah perspective on this? However, maybe the fact that “I don’t really know what the Community Council does” and you still want to run, is reason why a woman shouldn't run for office!

One of the issues with women not being allowed to vote here is that there are (unfortunately) households that are lacking a husband, be it for tragic reasons or otherwise. Those households do not have a voice in the elections at all. Yet they live work and raise children here. Can such an election be considered fair, or is it the old “taxation without representation”

No the Rebbe did not set up a system in which women can not vote. Don't interepert the Rebbe as you wish for your own personal bias

To #66, Reality Check:

Manis Friedman has long been discredited as someone who is in touch with reality, huh? And we don't want any of that pesky reality now, do we? :)

Isha tova osa rtzon baala. If you have a different opinion and you would vote differently then your husband then your marriage itself has many problems.

Look at the Sicha of 6 of Tishrei תשמ“ה where the Rebbe screams agains the ideas of feminism. Look at the Sicha ש”פ נשא תשמ“ד where the Rebbe explains that the bottom line of opinion in the home is that of the husband. the Rebbe compares this to the heart and the mind. that the heart has its rule but the mind has the last say, the same is true with the husband and the wife... (these are the Rebbe's words not mine.)

Look at the sicha of purim תשמ”ג from page 1085-1086. where the Rebbe speaks about Esther. that although true she had a role, but on the other hand “את מאמר מרדכי אסתא עושה” that everything that she did was the words of Mordichai( her husband).

Why don't we right in to the igros koidesh and see what the rebbe will respond.
Or we can go to the ohel, and do it there?

Dear #87 Laaniyas Dayti, Abigail Adams wrote these words in March 1776 after the British Army evacuated Boston when it was clear that American separation from England was going to be a fact; her husband, John Adams, was in Philidelphia serving in the Continental Congress which would shortly draft the Declaration of Independence. Abigail strongly felt that the new statutes should make provision for women's rights, including suffrage. And it makes sense--why should I obey laws or respect elected officials if I had neither say nor vote? Voting, even at the grassroots level, is a civic duty that should not be neglected. An educated and informed constituency, men and women, is necessary for a democracy to function as it should.

the sad realty is that tday in CH lives a large jewish group who maybe friends of lubavich are no more intrested in following the torah or the lubavitch doctrine.

the issue is not about who votes the issue is that their haskafah and kiyum hamitzvois is at best modern orthodox untill this is faced and dealt with regular lubavitcher chasidim who wish to follow the torah will face contiuess chalanges & attacks on their day to day behavior.

The comments in the blogs when it comes to simple yidiskeit issues are scary to read that they are coming from children of lubvitcher chasidim is alarming

Laaniyas Dayti, there -are- secular, gender segregated classrooms, they're just not mainstream. There is scientific research showing that both genders have greater confidence and improved test scores when learning in a single-sex classroom.

#89, you need to read the op-ed again.

#85, what secular movies are YOU watching? I have yet to see such a thing happen.

This is not about women or men.
Even single men can't vote.
According to the opinion that women should vote,maybe the ballots should be open the first few hours to women and afterwards for the men whose wives did not vote.
Since only one vote per household is allowed.

These votes are unlike any other votes.
When a president or mayor are elected, they have power over EVERY SINGLE citizent. Therefore, all men and women are entitled to vote.
These elected vaad hakol only have power over those who want to join the community and follow them.
Therefore, the votes go according to community and halachic rules.

The root of all evil is men's EGO. Especially the egos running rampant and shamelessly unfettered in our community.

Tova, great article!
Next, I would like you to write something intelligent about everything else that needs to be addressed in CH, namely...the SCHOOL system!
Love ya sis,

Sholom Ber M.- you need to work things out with your family.

“Your article is not a matter of opinion but a question for a Rov - what is the Torah perspective on this? However, maybe the fact that “I don’t really know what the Community Council does” and you still want to run, is reason why a woman shouldn't run for office!”
Your making the wrong assumption.The gist of the poster of this OP-ED is “ If I can't be a member of the Vaad at least give me the power to vote”
I am a male member of the CH heights community since 1943.Before there was a Vaad hakol or a vaad hakashrus or any other authority besides the Friediker Rebbe and the Rebbe. all shailes in all areas of Halocha were brought to Reb Shmuel Livitin,Rabbi Jacobson and later Reb ZS Dvorkin .There was no divisiveness and discord in the Lubavitcher community.All was Sholom vishalvo for the most part.
From the moment of their inception the vaad hakol and the CH community council have sowed hatred, factionalism, divisiveness and even worse in this community.I therefore ask the same question.I to don't understand exactly what is it that the Vaad Hakol does apart from the above named “benefits”?

Well, children, where there is so much racket there must be something out of kilter. I think that 'twixt the negroes of the South and the women at the North, all talking about rights, the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this here talking about?

That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but God heard me! And ain't I a woman?

Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? [member of audience whispers, “intellect”] That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negroes' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?

...

If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back , and get it right side up again! And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them.

Obliged to you for hearing me, and now old Sojourner ain't got nothing more to say.

He rants & raves about Tznius, but I wonder how Tznius HE really is. The ones who condemn the most are the ones who spend far too much time thinking about it. His way of expressing his views is really coarse & disgusting & he has the chutzpah to speak about Tznius?? I can't believe he speaks for anyone besides himself. I feel sorry for his poor wife.

About this article: Ms. Bernbaum speaks for many women including myself. I agree with #14, but I understand the Rebbe spoke about women voting. The point is, what EXACTLY did the Rebbe say, & under what circumstances? Can Rabbi Seligson write an article addressing this issue? He knows when, how, & why the Rebbe said anything about ANYTHING. He is more knowledgeable than Rivka Slonim & Manis Friedman. Once we really know all the details of what the Rebbe said, then maybe changes can be made.

It's already 2010, we're in America, and still women are not counted for a minyan in Crown Heights? Don't the people of Crown Heights know that women were Granted equal rights in America decades ago?
(My point is not about whether or not women should be able to vote, I'm just trying to point out the fallacy of basing your argument on it being 2010 in America rather than on whatever halachik issues may or may not be involved)
PS. to all those who are attacking “Sholom Ber Mendelson”: Do you actually think it was really him who posted that?!

This article was written beautify. Although i'm not from ch and i'm not voting i read a lot about the elections. I'm sure many woman have read a lot about the elections. But i read and read and i came up with who i think would be the best candidates and then what happened? Number one i live out of town so i couldn't vote in the first place and Number two is that all the ch woman who read and read couldn't even make their decision have an impact because they couldn't vote.Mine as well make the sites about the vaad hakol members off limits for woman! So im asking eveyone who lives in ch now: Please i beg of you for your sake make the woman allowed to vote. Woman really think about there decision and i think with the woman votes we will really have the right vaad hakol.

Why can't woman vote?

if its inappropriate- then whats the question? as a woman i respect the system that doesn't want me to vote- and i really dont care either. my husband and i discussed his vote vshalom al kulom

my husband and I discussed it and we voted together, although he actually cast the vote. who said women can't vote?!

to 105 what does woman being counted for a minyan which is rooted in halacha
have to do with woman voting which can be done in a tznius way and is not halachicly prohibited
wake up ch it is 2010 and woman should be allowed to vote

Most of the posts are criticizing Women having a leadership post and running in the elections....this is not what
Tova was writing about in her op-ed. Tova was expressing her dismay about “Why Women can't VOTE in the Crown
Heights Elections”...plain and simple. Why should it be one vote per household...suppose a husband and wife want to each vote for different candidates. Boruch Hashem we have raised strong, smart, capable Nshei Chabad who play a major role in the Chinuch Al Taharas Hakodesh and the instillment of the proper Hashkofeh in their children...They have set roots down in Crown Heights and want to be part of who gets voted in to the Crown Heights leadership and worry about the future of our Shchuna. And one more thing....why were elections held in the SUMMER...when a good portion of Crown Heights residents are away...not just women. Many people missed out on voting. Please Chevra, we are trying to raise young men and women to respect Community Leadership...but if it happens in a Chaotic, Unorganized way, what kind of message are we sending our youth? May Hakodosh Boruch Hu hearken our Tefilos and bless us with Good Leadership for our precious shchuna.

To Ariella #74 and #95.

Thank you so much for the lesson in American History. Assuming that you are the only one to have studied the pivotal role of John Adams in establishing this republic should be safe in CHT's. Unfortunately not to a lecturer in history (as I.)

Abigail and Jon Adams had an incredible eyeopening and historically revealing dialogue in their letters for the many months he was away from home toiling for the USA to live beyond its crib.

But what does that have to do with a yid living in 2010 in CHT's as a shomer torah umitzvos?

I don't understand which part of this sentence you and all these other comments don't get.

It may interest you to know, Ariella, that later in life John Adams came out of retirement to oppose a law in the Massachusets legislature that would have disadvantaged Jews. That still makes neither him nor his wife Abigail role models for the SHCHUNAH. Well, maybe if you dress like she did, then we might lend an ear. Or as my response to those who think Sarah Palin is bad news: “She would be a wonderful role model for the streets of Croen Heights.”

We live in a totaly free Country,
In this country everyone could do anything as long as it does'nt affect others.

We live in a Religious community.
THIS community follows the Torah Guidlines.
THIS community respects hard working people who bring up a family.
THIS community wants elected officials who keep our values.

To #97.

Fantastic. You mean that we have segregated classes in CHT's because of the psychological research saying it enhances performance. What an amazing thought.

Unfortunately some government sponsored (as in funded with your tax money) will undertake to see how serious (not whether) the effect of segregation is to normative social acculturation and hormonal health. Will we then integrate to co-ed at last. I can't wait for that sensible change (sic).

to 93 what years are those sichos from (or if likuttei sichos which volumes)

“These elected vaad hakol only have power over those who want to join the community and follow them.
Therefore, the votes go according to community and halachic rules.”
Say what? Apparently you know even less then I do as to what the community council does.
Please, pray tell what are the “halachik” rules of voting?Can you please edify us by revealing what part of Shulchon these “halochos” can be found in?

The fact that women are the ones who have an organization in CH who officially do not fast on 17 tamuz etc. tells you why women cannot be trusted to vote.

I have a suspicion that #39 was NOT Sholom Ber Mendelsohn.

I wonder if others feel the same. He probably doesn't even go onto CH.info! Lashing out at him for a comment which isn't his, is not appropriate.

I think it is someone using his name to express what that someone feels he would say, and thereby taking revenge on SB, as so many people will be enraged by “his” comment.

Its like those people on Facebook who pose as celebrities just to get attention. Quite a low tactic.

Did the Rebbitizen vote in secular elections?

1) The so called Sholom Ber Mendelson who posted here is clearly a troll.

2) Manis Friedman has long been discredited as someone who is in touch with reality. - who discredited him? He is one of the most sought after and respected speakers in Lubavitch, and is in fact an antidote to the extremists of the yellow variety who are indeed out of touch with reality.

3) This op ed is more proof that the real Chabad is on shlichus and in smaller communities, and CH is becoming irrelevant. Time to change that and fast (to put it mildly that is not what the Rebbe wanted as much as he stressed shlichus); those who want to join Young Israel should do so in the Five Towns.

I want to vote so 770 serves meals on Tisha b'av and we have pork sausages at every farbrengen. Moshiach is really here, you know, you just have to throw off the ol malchus shamayim that prevents you from seeing that the geula is really here!

Time for kol chatan vekol kala on the Vaad!

(In other words, if women vote it will be the fringe that will be the most involved, and CH will really become a joke. Clean out the ezras nashim first before you worry about what goes on in the Vaad!)

Crown Heights in gone maaaad!

To answer .
This has got to do with the biblical dictum of 'Minuy Melech', You shall appoint over yourselves a king(Torah) and not a ueen (midrash) that many halachists including the Rambam take to exclude woman from public office (shrara al hatzibur). in teshuvot of Reb moishe, it is clear that a woman may not serve on the board of a shul etc.

The issue of voting is not something I know about..
so i will leave it for someone else to post.

The issue of should the vadd hakohol become a secular organization to bring social welfare dollars to our neighborhood, and open the CHCC to non jewish residence as well, would be well worth looking into. this would remove most of the lubavitch politics from the table

to #120

This op-Ed is more proof that Crown Heights is full of extremists who feels threatened by the thought of women existing outside their homes, and would love to kick out any women who are able to have good intelligent matters to openly discuss.
Just another sexist and bullying tactic disguised by hiding behing the cloak of the good name of the Rebbe.

The women are the True Believers in Crown Heights. They are the peaceful version of Tzfatim.

Kol HaKavod. Who said Moshiach cannot be a woman? Rasbbi Akiva said it was an army general. Rabbi Akiva, the Tzadik Yesod Olam od his generation, he said that the general was Moshiach. So who says that the Rebbe cannot come and point to one of the nashim Ttzidkaniyos and say she is mochiach?

Yechi Shabbbos Malkessa!

I think the writer of this article sould get herself a new religion (and a new g-d, while at it).
Yes we are in 2010, and we still are not allowed to drive on shabbos, and we still go to mikvah (and we can't replace it with a jaccuzi), sorry

To the Author:

Get a life. Your a wealthy, guilt ridden, naive white girl, with little to no problems in her life, so you have to make one up by faining oppression. If your so unhappy move to a modern orthodox community.

To the rest of you, Stop trying to “save” Chabad with secularism. We shouldn't seek to make decisions based on the actions of non-Jewish Americans. Furthermore, we AREN'T Americans, we are Yehudim LIVING IN EXILE!!!

As a ba'al teshuvah, I would venture to say that most of the support for the author steams from other ba'al teshuvahs who have so far failed to reconciled their old secular progressive politics, with their new religious conservatism commandments.

Bottom line, people need to realize that they are not THAT special and stop trying to change Judaism, CHABAD and Crown Heights. Chabad SAVES, it doesn't need saving.

Is the council religious in nature? Or is it mainly to liaison with the local govt etc to provide funding for the community. I think this is the point that decides the issue. If its mainly a secular council woman should vote, especially since a lack of woman voting could cause repercussions in regards to grants and funding.I think the council should divest itself from any and all spiritual matters and focus solely on gashmiyus. If and when there is a working beis din that can focus on the ruchniyus.

Just look in today's shiur chumash (Monday, devarim), second passuk, and rashi on anashim...

Glossary of terms:
Shiur Chumash - portion of the daily parsha from Chitas.
Chitas - daily sections of learning instituted by the Lubavitcher Rebbes
Lubavitcher Rebbe - ....

Risha,

Watch your words.

That is a mitzva.

A friend.

I don't think it is fair that a woman who is so “emancipated” she does not use her husband's last name, should be writing OP-EDs to the Lubavitchers in Crown Heights. Last I heard, the Torah says “Ezer Kenegdo”. If you have a problem with that, you don't have a problem with Crown Heights, you have a problem with Torah. Face it and tell it how it is.

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with the the answer to my question,namely,in which chailik of Shulchon oruch do we find hilchos “voting” (bchiros)?

And you are a blatant chauvinist. But perhaps that is also a result of our galus?

Comparing woman voting to eating pork and eating on Tisha b'av??
Exactly what religion do you follow?? consider moving to Iran where you might find more similarity for yourself there

ASDF, what is with all the hate?

Shoot the messenger - but don't consider the pros or cons of the message.

To quote the Rebbe accurately for a change “Everyone is the Balabus of their own name”. It's on a Living Torah. Ask Elkanah.

In addition, a woman taking on her husbands name is not a jewish concept. When someone gets a mi-shebeirach at the torah are you asked for the woman's husbands last name or her mother's name. There is a makor for staying connected to your family. Not all men have such small (*&^% that they need to consider their spouse as property.

I'm sure that all of your hatred and mob mentality would make the Rebbe very proud.

I'm sure that the author would be happy to know that she's wealthy. I guess living in a 1 bedroom with 3 kids qualifies these days. As if that has anything to do with this article, or is any of your business.

this is a woman who clearly has a problem with the Torah view of women see http://www.chabad.org/theJe...

Where she doesn't conform to the Torahs view of V'hu yimshol bach.

as to what is the Torah view look at the sicha of the Rebbe from Shabbos Parshas Naso Tof shin Mem Gimmel where the Rebbe explains the man and womans roles. Very pertinent to this discussion.

To Risha #126.

She doesn't need a new G-d. She worships freedom. Her colleagues kneel with Abigail Adams for the cause.

The Declaration of Liberation speaks of freedom. It means freedom to of to keep your own faith and religion without any hindrance. Not freedom from religion and commitment.

To 139:
Who is Chabad.org to publish what you imply to be heresy?
You missed the point of the article.
V'hu Yimshal Bach is not a license for abuse.
Rather a challenge to overcome.

Stop with the hate.

I was making a point that the women who are the most active are sadly the nuttiest. You did not get that, I guess you need to go to Iran and see for yourself how the tznius patrol there are all women

<i>Crown Heights women getting that same right 90 years later is embarrassing, but not as embarrassing as 100 years later, or like, never.</i>

That's why women shouldn't be allowed to vote.

143 good one.
And my tatti is stronger than your tatti.

to 141 here is the quote from chabad.org “ Adam and Eve both received punishments for their transgression, affecting all men and women of future generations, but Eve's curses included the added shame of subordination. G-d said ”And he shall dominate you,“ and I would be lying if I didn't admit that every time I hear that line I want to declare myself a heathen.”

“ In fact, describing something as a ”curse“ means just the opposite — that this is not the way things ought to be. Nor does the fact that G-d is the author of a curse imply that G-d wants us to accept it as a fact of life — at least not in the Jewish tradition, it doesn't.”

Look at the the sicha that I quoted where the Rebbe speaks of the meaning of the curse.

As to why Chabad.org chose to print something so not in line with Torah true Judaism, and sounds more like the reform movement. I am not sure, ask the editors from Chabad.org, but if you wish to know the Torahs view or the Rebbe's view look at the sicha that I quoted and only then can you tell me to “stop with the hate”. I am not arguing hatefully I am saying that the writer is ignorant of the Torahs view of feminism.

(she obviously has trouble with the way the Torah has treated the women for the past thousands of years, as her claims are not that it is against Torah, “but that we are living in 2010”)

Well...Now that Chabad is so snagy I will have no choice but to become satmer!! A woman wants to know why she can't vote and you answer with nasty comments.

Tidbayesh lechem!! And with that attitude your kids will be fry before you can say shalom alichem rabi umori

That is an incredible generalization. Obviously they do not speak for all women in ch.

When the first elections were held, before Gimmel Tammuz, A WOMAN challenged the all male elections in a secular court. She lost. The secular court didn't want to get involved in a religious community's election process because it would be an unlawfulful entanglement between “church and State”, a legal doctrine.The case was dismissed.

It is amazing how narrow minded and one track minded you all are being so obsessed with tznius!
Voting had little to do with tznius and see how you had tied it in so well. Wether the rebbe had tznius in mind is something you might never know but you did somehow to tie it together...
It is absolutely rediculous how this turned into a site actually against the Rebbe's derech!!
Yes, you should be b'tznius and make the rebbe proud without trying to be mfaresh everything in your own style to meet your needs and your wants!
Yes, we are in the year 2010 but the Torah hasn't changed and neither has the Rebbe's hadracha!
You consider yourself Lubavitch and therefor feel you should have a voice for we are not opening this voting forum to anyone in the free USA! What makes you Lubavitch? Setting up your own hadrucha?

the men & women of CH voted forty years ago in a referendum if women should have the right to vote for Vadd Hakohol and the results of that election were the rules that we have today.

“It is a downright mockery to talk to women of their enjoyment of the blessings of liberty while they are denied the use of the only means of securing them provided by this democratic-republican government - the ballot.”--Susan B. Anthony, suffragette and reformer, 1872 after being arrested and fined $100 for voting. As the saying goes, well-bred women do not make history.

I had a big part in this election. My husband only represented us. I'm glad it wasn't me.... I don't thing these manly and tense social scenes are my thing.
Polotics are for men. I am proudly a WOMAN. I will keep out of something that is below my womanly dignity. It isn't below the men's. Just like I will not Shlep heavy boxes and my husband will. Although my husband will ask me where to put it. I have an oppinion and the community heard it through my husband but the actual deed - that my husband did.
I think this whole discussion is immature. Try to think where it's coming from. Deffinitely not a Jewish attitude.

I agree as well that women have a more emotional make up. This election was so full of agendas as is with the men. I could just see what a dissaster it would be if women were involved in the campaighning etc. (because if they're involved in the voting, trust me, the women's section of 770 would be a very uncomfortable place to be the Shabbos before)... I'm happy to be able to push the buttons - from the privacy of my own home. And that has been the Jewish woman's power from Sarah Imainu...
So go vote for the president, mayor, governor whatever. But in CH, let's keep it Jewish.

Why is it untznius for women to vote? Why is it secular for women to vote? why is it that it's like the secular society is bleeding into ours? We are taking about VOTING. Men don't have to see, hear or smell the women, and women have the simple right of casting a simple vote. reading all these comments I am beginning to think that there is chauvinism at play hear, hiding under the masks of “Religion”.

Wow. and like your a like a really big chauvinist.Like everything aside. you know what I mean?

I agree with the article 1,000%. People who are using this article as an excuse to rant and rave about problems in CH that have no connection to what the article is trying to say are just being stupid. For all of you who are saying things like, should women be counted for a minyan? and secularism is saving chabad! are stepping out of the box. You are using examples that are confusing halacha and a matter of opinion. to:secularism is saving chabad!: is there a problem with seeing positive things with the goyim around us? some of them are pretty smart u know. as it says in pirkei avos, one can learn from EVERYTHING.

#155: I've also learned from Pirkei Avos and should have remembered so before I got involved with this conversation -

1:5 “Yosay ben Yochanan of Jerusalem ...Hence the Sages have declared: Anyone who indulges excessively in conversation with a woman causes evil to himself, neglects the study of Torah and will in the end inherit Gehinnom.”

To all the negative exaggerated critiques, which are now getting frighteningly personal:

The number of hate-filled comments is scary. The low level of discourse--the ridiculously personal nature of the insults is very frightening. An intelligent woman expresses her views and many people agree, many disagree, but almost all hide behind anonymity. How many people would comment if they were required to use their real names?

How many of these commenters will openly admit to having internet access in their homes? How many of these commenters have signed documents stating that they do NOT have internet access in their homes, in order to enroll their children in Lubavitch schools? All the complainers about lack of tznius, all the crazy whacko exaggerations about women wanting to tear down the mechitzas, eat on Tisha B'av, etc., all coming from people who have lied in front of their children about their access to the internet. Is that the reason for the pervasive anonymity?

This is a most graphic example of the power--in a negative sense--of the internet. People are free to be stupid and nasty without fear of discovery. Only Tova Bernbaum has the courage to state her beliefs, state them clearly and intelligently, and put her name on them.

To all the haters: Clean out your own houses before you start attacking someone else.

good one mom!

Women, what proof do you have that your husband voted for the same candidate you preferred?

Maimonides and the bible have been brought up. Maimonides was a MAN (read: not Hashem) who died a very, very long time ago. The same goes for sages. Why is it that these people have more knowledge and control over our lives in death than WE do in living?

You want to talk more about Rambam? I don't see anything in the 613 mitzvot about women not being allowed to vote but we have some in regard to punishment (decapitation, strangulation, burning, stoning, etc.) that we're not keeping up!

Are we not allowed to grow from the past? In regard to Rambam and the sages, their interpretations of Torah are just that - interpretations. We have plenty of knowledge today to also make our own. Quite frankly, that bible verse about the queen, in my interpretation, has NOTHING to do with voting. I'm taking it literally and I don't see it. Without quoting an ancient figure or someone else, do you?

That said, where are our sages in 2010? Where is our Devorah?

Every woman, with the power of her vote, can be a Devorah.

As the only reason people still live in crown heights and didn't move out in 60's, is because the Lubavitcher Rebbe gave it the name “kahn tziva hashem es habrachah” and requested they remain,
we should follow what the Rebbe had to say on the issue of the Crown Height Jewish Community Council, I haven't seen the letter or instructions on how it should be run, but apparently the Rebbe wasn't for having women vote.
But what can be done is, why don't they setup a womens commitee and women can vote on that , and the newly formed womens commitee will work with the mens Vaad on issues that pertain to women and children, and be a voice of women to the vaad, then women won't be left out in the cold, and can have a say of the happenings in the community, and will also ease the load of the vaad on issues they don't have an understanding for
Women do have a right to vote! But should respect the current rules as they were placed in by the Rebbe and if they can't respect that, then its a unwinnable debate and its a long dark night awaiting anyone who does care about the Rebbes vision of CH

Why don't women worry about their own problems, like tznius and the many female extremists and whackos, before they worry about voting in community elections?

Each person has the mental and physical capability to spiritually transcend the world around them.

The belittling, the judging, the lacking of love towards other human beings does not help. Moshiach will not come to solve our problems. Moshiach will come when we're able to solve our own, get along, put the pettiness aside and learn to look beyond the physicality of each person — and of every nation — to their soul. You can't hear Hashem's voice when you're full of anger and judgment.

If Jews are to be a light unto the world, the terrible, misogynistic, racist, hateful comments here are an indication this community is not ready or willing to be so.

Don't forget what the Rebbe was about, and have some Ahavas Yisroel.

This is 2010, even to Jewish people, even in CH, and even in Lubavitch...which means, try to understand this generation or you will lose them to secular society. The Torah never changes, but the times do, and we need to apply it accordingly.

Voting is not breaking Shabbos and mikvah. Its not even untznius. Your losing touch with reality will not be lost on the youth, and you will lose them.

my own opinion:
i look on with contempt and derision upon any person man or woman who is against women voting in the elections.

Two thumbs up!!!