So can it be? can losers lose twice on the same loss? with these losers anythings possible.....Vote Shea/Hackner, Vote out the moser accomplice fishel brownstien.

g-d bless this Rabbi . if not 4 him who knows wat would be in our hood. k`ahs. . i and meny think .that he ruls with a clear head . so the old vadd lost , big deal it`s what the majority wants , and the Rebba said that the majorty has a koaach .

what about gabaim? im sure there needs to be a chnage for more or less but im sure the number is not 2 for lipsker!!

We need Rabbi Avrohom Rosenberg to join the CH Bais Din!! He has the yishuv ha'das to lead the community.

I have been following the elections and CH politics in general, closely over the past year plus. I have a big question that it seems no one is addressing. There have been allegations of Mesirah by various individuals. It is my understanding that Mesirah is an halachic construct that applies to certain people in certain situations. It is obviously a very grave accusation, as it has far reaching ramifications. I have read of no news report about anyone involved in CH politicas that has had a Bais Din rule that they acted in a manner that is consistent with Mesirah. Furthermore, I have not even heard of anyone who was called to a Din Torah and was Mesarev L'din over an accusation of Mesirah. I think it is frivolous to throw such a grave term around without the backing of an Halchic ruling on the matter. In fact, Rabbi Rosenberg is surely aware of such claims and has never to my knowledge treated any of the alleged Mosrim as such. I understand that people have legitimate grievances in our community, and perhaps we have in Rabbi Rosenberg a Rov who is acceptable to all parties. Take the claims of Mesirah to his Beis Din and get a ruling on the matter once and for all.

Having the runoff elections at a time when many of the residents that voted in the first election will be out of town (country etc.) is not fair and will cause many people to say that the new Vaad is not what was voted for.

At $400 an hour how much has been spent on Rabbi Rosenberg so far? Rumor has over $70,000. With hundreds of families way below the poverty level surely Zaki Tamir could help out the situation by using this money to help feed he indigent in CH?

To 5. Out of towner:

Just because YOU have not heard about it means that it is so?

As a matter of fact there were a number of unanswered Hazmonos to Din Torah which were never responded too, and even a letter (see here: http://tinyurl.com/2bnov7z) in which Rabbi Osdoba called part of this group Mosrim.

But what happened to Rabbi Segal after he made a stand against Messira? Well we all know what Elie Poltorak succeeded in doing, having him removed as a Rov.

Fact: our community are spineless and gutless when it comes to standing up for ourselves (only one time that this does not apply, in the anonymity of an election box) in which we all spoke loud and clear, that even though our Rabboin are petrified of these MOSRIM, we will not stand for it.

So do me a favor you 'out of towner' keep your politically correct bs to yourself and start taking the stance against Mesira rather then justify it.

To Messira is Wrong:

You linked to a letter written by Rav Osdoba with a psak as a daas yochid, not a Beis Din. What I said was that no one was called to a Din Torah and later placed in Siruv. If there were legitimate hazmanos, why weren't the alleged Mosrim placed in Siruv? If they were, those are the letters I'd like you to link to.

Rabbi Osdobas letter does not name a single individual, so I'm not sure which “part of this group” you are referring to.

Rabbi Rosenberg's Psak stated that Rabbi Segal's appointment was a life term, so it sounds like he made out OK in spite of the psak that the elections in which he was elected as Rav were invalid because of the way in which the then Vaad HaKohol carried them out.

You insinuate that Elie Poltorak was involved in removing him as Rov. I thought that was Rabbi Rosenberg who did that. Are you suggesting Rabbi Rosenberg did not act fairly and in accordance with halachah in his psak din? Also, it seems that Rabbis Zirkind and Raitport were “removed” as well. Was this also because of their stand against Mesira, or was it because their election was ruled illegitimate?

Your closing “Fact” smacks of opinion to me. I have no problem with you or your opinion. In fact, if you were truly the victim of Mesira I hope you have your day in court and get your rightful outcome. But I know that Crown Heights politics are very heated and the line between fact and opinion often gets burned up.

Finally, I am currently out of town, but from CH all my life. My friends will tell you that I am the last person to bend to political correctness, so I take offense at that label. I would never justify Mesira, but it seems that your charges are just charges at this point, not rlings by a Beis Din.

You got it all upside-down, and its quite comical!

It does not take a Bais Din to rule an individual, or a group for that matter, a Mosser. It is incumbent on the person who used the police or the court system to show support from a Bais Din that has given him permission to do so, as it is such a grave matter.

(see link http://tinyurl.com/2dr8s42)

In both mentioned cases each of the individuals either went directly and made a police report, or assisted in making one, for the sole purpose of having other Jews arrested. That fact is undeniable, both based on fact, and by the individuals own admission.

Now if any of them claim that they were told it was ok and that there was permission, that is not ok. Its his responsibility to make sure that is in fact true otherwise run the risk of being involved in a Messira.

It does not take a Bais Din to label someone a Mosser, but when it does the Rambam writes some very grave things about what needs to be done to one (i.e. push in him into a pit, has no chelek to oilam habo, posul l'edus, and some even more harsh things like his wife must divorce him and publicly decry his actions and much more).

Do they want the naming to stop? Let them go to a Bais Din to explain their actions. But all they will end up doing is justifying Messira, like you are right now.

I'm sure that just as you have explanations to justify your actions before those who disagree with you, so do they. You of course will not accept their justifications just as they do not accept yours. What I can tell by the link you put in your previous comments is that the editor of this website is passing off as news what is obviously editorial perspective. He refers to the allegation as a blood libel, a term reserved for the most heinous crimes of antisemitism, which is inappropriate in this case for a variety of reasons, no matter how wrong you feel they are.

Furthermore, the whole thrust of the article you linked to is how members of the old/new vaad were challenged because they are Mosrim, yet in another article where you published Rabbi Rosenberg's decision (http://tinyurl.com/2ae7sad) he stated that the challenges to the candidacy of the old/new vaad were unfounded, thus giving the old/new vaad permission to run. R' Rosenberg's decision doesn't include an attachment of the challenges, but if you claim that they were challenged on the grounds of Mesirah, it seems to me that R' Rosenberg, in the name of that Beis Din Zabla, has cleared them of any such charges pending further evidence. In fact, I suspect that those challenges had nothing to do with Mesirah since they included that candidacy of Brownstein and Cadaner, neither of whom was accused of Mesirah in the article you linked.

You have still shown no evidence that any of these people had a siruv placed on them for not responding to a call to a din Torah.

All I am asking for is to cut the ad hominem attacks, unilaterally if need be. Use your freedom of the press responsibly.

Dear Out of Towner,

I am by no stretch a Halahic authority. It seems that others think they are. If there is a question what is a mesirah and if what the Poltorak Vaad did is mesirah why not ask a Rov?
Or maybe open a Halacha sefer and look it up?
This poskining by the seat of the pants phylosophy is a big part of the problem in my view. Daas Baaley Batim Heypach Ha Torah!

This past week I purchased a newspaper. Not just any newspaper, I purchased the “Yated Ne’eman”. This newspaper is about 140 pages with additional 30 pages inset. The newspaper is written by heavy “Misnaged”, a Misnaged who is not too fond of Lubavitch.

Reading the newspaper from side to side, I have not seen one mention of Gimmel Tammuz nor the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Yet, there were five pages dedicated to a Lubavitcher named Shalom Mordechai Rubashkin, plus a full page advertisement for an event dedicated to him, to be held in Monsey. Where the keynote speaker was the Satmer Dayanin Monroe.

After seeing the article and advertisement, a question arose in my mind. Why would a newspaper who gives Lubavitch no recognition and makes no mention of Gimmel Tammuz give so much attention to a Lubavither who is standing trial and can C”V sit many years in prison? I quickly came to the conclusion the reason is simply, he is a Jew who might end up going to prison and it bothers them. It bothers them to the extent that the event in Monsey had 3000 attendees (consisting of Litvaks, Satmar and many other Chassidic groups).

These candidates engaged in having others arrested, subpoenaed Gemachim, and institutions. These actions can result in numerous Jews going to prison. Did they stop for one minute to think of the harm they can cause the people that benefit from the Gemach in many ways, and all the people we couldn’t help this year because of the damage these Mosrim caused the Gemach?.

The matter isn’t about who can get a dollar more or a dollar less for the community. This is a matter of keeping Jews out of prison. They will go to no end to get what they want and they will have as many Jews put away to achieve their goal.

I have never spoken about this issue as much as now. It is an obligation to go out on Sunday and vote, to Vote these Mossrim out. As a community we have to stop the Messiros. There is no need for government grants, and programs, if members of the community are in prison.

(Rabbi Bogomilsky speech in his Shul – Parshash Korach

FYI, Eli Poltorac on this past Sunday sat in front of Rav Rosenberg (and another 15 people) and he cried to him that it was his (Rosenbergs) fault that he lost in the election. Eli cried: “we were demoralized, we were at a disadvantage because you (Rosenberg) didn't vindicate us that we are not mossrim, and thats why the people voted against us”

To which Rosenberg responded (paraphrasing): “it would take me six weeks to study this in depth to come to a definite conclusion, and it may be that you will end up definitely a mosser, do you have the money to pay for this research?

”Besides, you still have the other allegations by the Hershkops [shomrim 6], which has nothing to do with the din torah issues, in which they clearly accuse you of messira, and that also resonated with the community, so why blame me?"

No one needs a din torah to tell you that when someone eats chazer he transgressed the torah, so too with messira, it's not a choshen mishpat issue, it is an issur v'heter issue, and one who transgresses has to be dealt with not by a bais din, but by the average citizen, and hashoel harei ze megune. The burden of proof is on the perpetrator of the messira and not the other way around. And so far, after more than a year of messira accusations, they haven't produced one letter from any Rav absolving them of this claim, or to say that he gave them a heter for this messira, not even at the din torah, where they were asked this question constantly over a period of six months.

Thank G-d this stain stuck, people saw it as it is, and good riddance from the mossrim. Thanks to guys like them, we have a chag hageula of Yud Beis Tammuz.

there clearly is an ideological justification for the alleged messira. now the problem with that is, that there is approximately 40 precent (based on the amount of votes the polterak and co. got) of the community which believes in the ideological justifications (backed by a rov). so i agree with the “out of towner” - that in order for a messira claim to have grounds in this particular case - there has to be some sort of siruv, or the “halachic ramifications” of messira dont hold much ground (because there are substantial amount of people in CH, including a rov, which agrees with the ideological justification).

in case any of you were thinking; i personally DO NOT believe in the ideological reasoning for messira - au contraire!

This is going to be my last post on this issue because I didn't beging this conversation to debate, only to request that people with power use discretion.

To # 14: Even if I take your transcript of the Poltorak Rosenberg meeting as accurate,you have gone further to prove my point than to prove your own. I don't know if Poltorak would disagree with anything you said except that he “cried”. He was likely demoralized, the Rov did not vindicate him, and the people voted against him. The Rov did not respond that he was a Moser, as I mentioned before, the Rov found no such evidence despite the challenge to his candidacy. (If the Hershkop issue was not relevant to the elections, CHinfo's article that Poltorak and Sperlin were challenged on the grounds of Mesirah was inaccurate, because how could they be challenged for an irrelevant issue?) Instead, the Rov reportedly told him that he might be found to have commited Mesirah IF an investigation into the claim would be conducted.

To correct your inaccuracy: Mesirah is clearly a Choshen Mishpat issue, whereas eating chazer is an issue of issur vheter. The former is Bein Adam LChaveiro, the latter Bein Adam Lamakom. To say that a dispute between yidden is not an issue for Beis Din, but one for the average citizen flies in the face of Halacha. The burden of proof lies always on the accuser, not the accused. In Dinei Mamonus the Halachah is Homotzi Mechaveiro Alav Horayeh. I am not Rov, but the same would likely apply with alleged Mesira. There are clearly Heteirim al pi Halacha to bring a Jew to secular court in certain circumstances. Therefore, it's not as simple as saying someone's a Moser because he has a case with a Jew in court. Just as someone might be eating Chazer beshogeg or for Pikuach Nefesh, in which case the act is not necessarily what it seems.

To compare those you call Mosrim to those who sentenced the Frierdiker Rebbe to death and to life in prison is as irresponsible as it is illogical. Your arguments have not held up, but your emotions obviously don't let you see past the tip of your nose. All I ask is that people choose their words carefully, and disagree with each other in a manner that is consistent with Machlokes Lshem Shomayim. Someone else's Rishus does not justify another's Loson Horah, Motzi Shem Ra, and/or Rechilus.

What about the 'real mesira' against eli ezagui (Hashem Yerachem Olov)?

I would be indebted to you if you can show me any written support for the messira from any Rav, especially as you so eloquently hint to “backed by a rov” that supposedly gave them permission for this mesira, or who supported the 4 mossrim in the election?

No innuendo please, just a simple public letter of any sort. I did see a letter from Rabbi Osdoba condemning them as mossrim and I also heard Rabbi Bogomilsky announce publicly that they are mossrim.

Now its your turn to give us date time and place where ANY one rov gave them support/permission for their messira.

Out of towner should be writing his comments here...
http://1bigcholent.wordpres...

The evidence points to Mesira, these mosrim did not go get permission to do the mesira.

Stop justifying and excusing Mesira, for those who justify and excuse are part of the problem.

The community saw the prove and they voted no more Mesira!

If Sperlin and Poltrok want a Din Torah on whether they are mosrim, lets have it.

Simply because potorak bemoaned the mesirah issue as his downfall, who said he is right?

People were dicgusted with his behaviour years ago on Rosh Hashono. People despise his flipancy and arrogance. People dislike his presence and comical demeanor.

As to his cohorts, people were disgusted with breaking and entering. Stealing of private files. many people were sickened by the elections of 09.

certainly the subpeonas sickened vast parts of the community, not necessarily because of mesirah but as brutal thuggery

some people may also have been disgusted with the attitude that I only want to work with my friends. when slates were used a few years ago the community was livid at the breach of democracy

in any case the people have spoken clearly and the new people should enter as quickly as possible

“I did see a letter from Rabbi Osdoba condemning them as mossrim”

What is this a joke or what?

Something to think about

there is a minimum of 3 needed according to the bylaws
If none were elected then the current vaad would be in till the next round with only 1 person elected that still means there is the void of not having 3
also by being flexible with the bylaws in the beginning by allowing younger people to vote and allowing people who are on other mosdos to run it now gives the daayan the flexibility that is needed to fix things for the community because if we went to the letter of the bylaws it would be a whole different playing field I have trust that there was foresight or siyata dishmaya that made there would be a precedent to be flexible I hope all turns out well,

You are simply an Am Hooretz. I have no other way to analyze your rants. You are using your emotions to defend the indefensible. Next time before you voice your opinion on the issue of Messira, please look in Shulchan Aruch shin pey ches, first. I believe that there are editions with vowels available to assist you in your reading.

Messira is a Issur V'Heter issue only. There is no Bein Odom L'Chaveiro issue connected with Messira. And your twists which are purely based on emotions coupled by ignorance, will help you prevail in your arguments only by certified Am Hoaratzim.

According to Halacha there is no difference on the issue of Messira between a Mosser who endangers someones life to someone who Massers on someone regarding monetary issues. And in this specific case there was an absolute Messira against Rabbonim, Askonim and Mosdos, that they steal government funds. There was no Hamotzie Meichaveiro Olov Horaayo here.

Rabbi Rosenberg is smart enough not to antagonize the Mossrim, as it is known what he said about them regarding some of the nuances of the Din Torah which I will not elaborate on. Its not my job to educate you. But he is extremely careful not to make them angry.

Besides, Rabbi Osdoba is 'almost' as proficient as you in Halacha and he paskend that they are absolute Mossrim. Rabbi Bogomilsky Paskened that they are Mossrim, and Vaad Rabbonei Lubavitch wrote the same. Your ignorance and emotional outbursts don't change a thing.

And since you're not responding anymore, just spend your time looking up Shulchan Aruch Shin Pey Ches, maybe at least you will learn some Torah while doing this.

Shulchan Aruch on Mesira:

http://mosrim.files.wordpre...

Ramabam - Chovel Umazzik:
http://mosrim.files.wordpre...